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powering the third world

Hi All, I was reading about MIT's idea of creating a PC for the third world http://laptop.media.mit.edu and its use of a wind up crank to power for its PC. It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of operating"
I would think this would be very generous calculations and there should be easier way for the worlds poor to get power when an area/region is not on a grid or the people cant afford a utility bill. Would 19th century technology be a better way to go ie: steam powering a dynamo (Your child's bicycle light).
Both these technologies would be quite old and not under any patent rights anymore so it should be relatively cheap/easy to manufacture while being simple enough to run and maintain.
Would it be possible to create a system, where a mum's in the 3rd world, could siphon her wood stove wok's or pot's excess stream and pass into a tiny triple expansion steam engine to generate power for such a mobile device.
Steam generators seem to have gone out of fashion, as I cant find many on the web eg: http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam
Is there reason this type of system wouldn't be feasible?
Im probably watching too much of the discovery channel, but I love to hear you ideas/input,
Regards,
Slyi
BTW: Has anyone had any experience with web/email over Ham radio for remote areas Eg: http://www.nsrc.org/wireless/HF-radio.html

powering the third world

"slyi" wrote in message

Hi All, I was reading about MIT's idea of creating a PC for the third world http://laptop.media.mit.edu and its use of a wind up crank to power for its PC. It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of operating"
I would think this would be very generous calculations and there should be easier way for the worlds poor to get power when an area/region is not on a grid or the people cant afford a utility bill. Would 19th century technology be a better way to go ie: steam powering a dynamo (Your child's bicycle light).
Both these technologies would be quite old and not under any patent rights anymore so it should be relatively cheap/easy to manufacture while being simple enough to run and maintain.
Would it be possible to create a system, where a mum's in the 3rd world, could siphon her wood stove wok's or pot's excess stream and pass into a tiny triple expansion steam engine to generate power for such a mobile device.
Steam generators seem to have gone out of fashion, as I cant find many on the web eg: http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam
Is there reason this type of system wouldn't be feasible?
Im probably watching too much of the discovery channel, but I love to hear you ideas/input,
Regards,
Slyi 3rd world and triple pass steam. And your getting that technology to the

third world????? Power is a wonder thing. What are they going to use it for? Laptops?
Most of the production steam generators near my home are only double pass.

powering the third world

slyi wrote:

Hi All, I was reading about MIT's idea of creating a PC for the third world http://laptop.media.mit.edu and its use of a wind up crank to power for its PC. It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of operating"
I would think this would be very generous calculations and there should be easier way for the worlds poor to get power when an area/region is not on a grid or the people cant afford a utility bill. Would 19th century technology be a better way to go ie: steam powering a dynamo (Your child's bicycle light).
Both these technologies would be quite old and not under any patent rights anymore so it should be relatively cheap/easy to manufacture while being simple enough to run and maintain.
Would it be possible to create a system, where a mum's in the 3rd world, could siphon her wood stove wok's or pot's excess stream and pass into a tiny triple expansion steam engine to generate power for such a mobile device.
Steam generators seem to have gone out of fashion, as I cant find many on the web eg: http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam
Is there reason this type of system wouldn't be feasible?
Im probably watching too much of the discovery channel, but I love to hear you ideas/input,
Regards,
Slyi
BTW: Has anyone had any experience with web/email over Ham radio for remote areas Eg: http://www.nsrc.org/wireless/HF-radio.html

I would think solar and hand crank would be cheaper.
But more to the point, the supply of PCs will lag behind want for a long time yet. So it makes more sense to go for the lowest hanging fruit, ie places where there is already electrickery.
BTW, what would a low power pc use, 30w? If so, that 10:1 hand crank would need an output of 300w, so an input of 400w... fairly hard going for 10 minutes of use.
A thermopile might make more sense than steam. Low voltage ones can be diyed with copper and nichrome wire.
NT

powering the third world

"slyi" wrote:

BTW: Has anyone had any experience with web/email over Ham radio for remote areas Eg: http://www.nsrc.org/wireless/HF-radio.html

I haven't followed it for a while, but IMHO microsats are far superior to HF for data. Kinda too bad Amsat never could find a launch opportunity for Phase IIID. http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/index.php

powering the third world

Hi meow, Sorry i have absolulty no experience in this areana and im just curious of windup about windup praticality's for such a high powered decive. So what your saying it be more ecomonical to put give out the PC's to poor urban area's first and for the remote areas have a more scaled up eletricity generation at the central high school where the PC would be used rather than at each and every home.
BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.
regards,
slyi

powering the third world

"slyi" wrote:

BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan

Not at all, their lifespan is measured in decades, very probably longer than the computer they'd be powering. However, the expense of solar cells would break the budget of a $100 laptop...

powering the third world

slyi wrote:

Sorry i have absolulty no experience in this areana and im just curious of windup about windup praticality's for such a high powered decive.

The computer they were proposing is more like a PDA than a laptop so it's power requirements are more likely to be one Watt or less rather than 30 to 80 watts. It's not a high powered device so hand cranking becomes possible though a foot powered generator would likely be more practical.

So what your saying it be more ecomonical to put give out the PC's to poor urban area's first and for the remote areas have a more scaled up eletricity generation at the central high school where the PC would be used rather than at each and every home.

It's more practical to get electricity and communications to these schools, homes and towns first and then get them computers rather than the other way around.

BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.

Solar panels don't require maintenance and last decades, perhaps even centuries.
Anthony

powering the third world

It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of operating"

Its no good - its only for people who type REALLY fast; Microsoft Operating system takes 9 minutes to boot, and this leaves you only one minute to type and use the thing.

powering the third world

XP powers up between 6 seconds and 20 seconds depending on where you left off.
"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message

It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of operating"
Its no good - its only for people who type REALLY fast; Microsoft Operating system takes 9 minutes to boot, and this leaves you only one minute to type and use the thing.

powering the third world

"Solar Flare" wrote in message

XP powers up between 6 seconds and 20 seconds depending on where you left off.

Ah, I didn't know this.

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of operating"
Its no good - its only for people who type REALLY fast; Microsoft Operating system takes 9 minutes to boot, and this leaves you only one minute to type and use the thing.

powering the third world

"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message

It's more practical to get electricity and communications to these schools, homes and towns first and then get them computers rather than the other way around.

Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing on the list. Electricity, communications, health care, food, law enforcement, textiles, transportation etc., first.

powering the third world

"Mr Wizzard" wrote:

Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing on the list.

One of the advantages touted for the wind-up $100 laptop was that it could provide lighting in homes without power. 8*)

powering the third world

"William P.N. Smith" wrote in message

"Mr Wizzard" wrote: Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing on the list.
One of the advantages touted for the wind-up $100 laptop was that it could provide lighting in homes without power. 8*)

haH, now there ya go. Not something you hear every day. Course glow sticks might be cheaper. Or hows bout them shake up flashlights ?

powering the third world

"Mr Wizzard" wrote:

"William P.N. Smith" wrote: One of the advantages touted for the wind-up $100 laptop was that it could provide lighting in homes without power. 8*)
haH, now there ya go. Not something you hear every day. Course glow sticks might be cheaper. Or hows bout them shake up flashlights ?

Or the generator, battery, and backlight from the $100 computer. 8*)

powering the third world

Hi
Many folks wrote:

So what your saying it be more ecomonical to put give out the PC's to poor urban area's first and for the remote areas have a more scaled up eletricity generation at the central high school where the PC would be used rather than at each and every home.

I think that would make more sense, though its not precisely what I'd propose. Why buy a $100 laptop when you could get used western PCs for less, and plug it in where there's mains already. It does more and costs less.

BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.

Solar panels dont normally need maintenance, but do have lifetime limits. Theyre quite long but not indefinite, and repair isnt really an option. So if solar pv were installed today (at vast expense) there would likely be little of that infrastructure remaining in 50 years time. High cost means a long time to equip a country, so a nationwide electricity infrastructure can not realistically be built up this way.
I read in 2005 a survey (I forget the exact details) of small solar implementations in South Africa found that after 5 years something like 25% of the systems were abandoned due to failure and inability to afford repair, and IIRC about 50% were not working as well they should. So IRL the mean time to failure is not so great.
Solar thermopiles OTOH will carry on indefinitely, given occasional very simple and very cheap repair. Theyre also extremely low cost to install. I'm talking here about piles made from copper and nichrome wire, not high price commercial peltier type units. Install cost is critical in the 3rd world. Also when installtion is underfunded and thus slow, an infrastructure should be chosen that will accumulate over time, rather than one where the whole lot will be gone and need replacing every so often. Put in 100,000 thermopile generators per year, and after 50 years you've got nearly 2 million power units running. Do this with solar pv and you'll have little left by then, and there'll be no accumulation of infrastructure.
Abandonment of systems primarily comes down to cost. High cost PV is prone to theft and vandalism, and replacement is simply not affordable. Thermopiles are not such an attractive target for theft, can be easily repaired after vandalism, and can be replaced entirely at an affordable price.

However, the expense of solar cells would break the budget of a $100 laptop...

Solar pv is a very expensive way to generate electricity, yet the west seems to think its the solution for people in poverty. Odd.

The computer they were proposing is more like a PDA than a laptop so it's power requirements are more likely to be one Watt or less rather than 30 to 80 watts. It's not a high powered device so hand cranking becomes possible though a foot powered generator would likely be more practical.

Right, that makes more sense. I would think a solar thermopile would be well suited to such an app, and more appropriate tech than pedal power. Cheaper, easier, and doesnt drain human energy, which is a valuable commodity often overlooked by rich people with no such life pressures.
The materials cost of a 10w solar thermopile would be under 10p (20 cents US). It would need a voltage convertor, but again total cost would come in at well under that of a pv panel. Also some convertors can be made from scrap parts, so would be by some. (This infrastructure addition could not happen with pv.) And since all the component parts can be salvaged or made locally, and people can make money with computers, there would soon be an industry in thermopile manufacture and repair.

XP powers up between 6 seconds and 20 seconds depending on where you left off.

I dont think it would ever be based on windows. MS wont even give hospitals free use of software, they surely wont grant it to a whole nation. Linux seems the logical contender, possibly one of the small low RAM packages, or more likely a custom distro for a non-standard machine. Non standard means added extra software development costs of course.

It's more practical to get electricity and communications to these schools, homes and towns first and then get them computers rather than the other way around.
Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing on the list. Electricity, communications, health care, food, law enforcement, textiles, transportation etc., first.

All these things come from computers. Computers enable people by giving them knowledge and power, and its lack of those things that are why the basics still arent there. Realise that many poor have no access to media of any kind, none whatever. So how are they going to learn? Today they dont. How are they going to access global trade, as one can on the net? Today they dont. Although a computer isnt food, computers do generate economic growth and considerable improvement in standards of living. A few examples:
With access to a computer, one can make money doing google 'researching', entering taxes, and many other ways. This is serious income for people with little. With a computer one can learn how to make mud buildings that last centuries instead of decades, or how to make sunbaked bricks. With a computer one can learn how to make contraceptives, learn the various medical techniques that cost close to nothing, use educational software, learn how to turn inedible ogranic scraps into worm meat., learn how to improve food growing techniques to maximise yield. With computer access one can learn how to make a solar cooker, and no longer need to go out into the woods and get raped. Not depleting all that plant matter means more fertility in the long run, which means more food production. With a computer one can learn how to fabricate items out of available resources, and how to make their design as efficient as possible. With a computer one can gain some political power With a computer one can learn and learn and learn, and thus gain opportunities to transform life in many ways. Information is one of the ways to get out of poverty, to enable people to improve their lives and those of their fellows.
NT


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