Building VS Buying Solar Collector.

I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar thermal collectors but I would not save that much energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the rates we pay these days.
If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe it would be worth it.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message

Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords, evacuated tube solar
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evacuated-tube-solar-hot-water.shtml

I have looked into those. It would take years for a payback. That's the whole Idea with building my own. I have plenty of room. So what If I need 6 flat plates. That = the cost of 2 evacuated units.
"SolarFlair" wrote in message

I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar thermal collectors but I would not save that much energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the rates we pay these days.
If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe it would be worth it.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords, evacuated tube solar
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evacuated-tube-solar-hot-water.shtml

I don't think the panel units will develop as high of temperatures in the winter months. If you are in a warmer climate they should be fine.
"Drums" wrote in message

I have looked into those. It would take years for a payback. That's the whole Idea with building my own. I have plenty of room. So what If I need 6 flat plates. That = the cost of 2 evacuated units.
"SolarFlair" wrote in message I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar thermal collectors but I would not save that much energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the rates we pay these days.
If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe it would be worth it.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message
Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords, evacuated tube solar

http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evacuated-tube-solar-hot-water.shtml

Im sure they won't but Im not looking to get much out of them in the dead of winter. I expect thay will help reduce my hot water heating costs and provide some heat assistance in the milder months. If the outside temp is say 30 and the water temp reaches 90F on a sunny day that adding heat to the house is it not? Remeber that this is not going to be a primary source. Im only looking to reduce my heating bill and hot water bill. 6 Flat plates should give me at least 200 gallons of hot or warm water storage. If insulated well that should reduce the heating load considerably on a sunny day no? I may well end up being that even building my own won't give me much of a payback but I don't think would be the case running 6 collectors.
"SolarFlare" wrote in message

I don't think the panel units will develop as high of temperatures in the winter months. If you are in a warmer climate they should be fine.
"Drums" wrote in message I have looked into those. It would take years for a payback. That's the whole Idea with building my own. I have plenty of room. So what If I need 6 flat plates. That = the cost of 2 evacuated units.
"SolarFlair" wrote in message I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar thermal collectors but I would not save that much energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the rates we pay these days.
If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe it would be worth it.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message
Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords, evacuated tube solar

http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evacuated-tube-solar-hot-water.shtml

The cost of the evacuated tube solar water heaters is coming down in price. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and our natural gas prices are going thru the roof. Last summer they were $7 per Gj and now they are $16 per Gj. On top of the ridiculous prices they have added administration fees, distribution fees, rider fees, taxes and whatever other fees that they can come up with. I am fed up with utility companies gouging me and I purchased my first solar water collector just before Christmas. Unfortunately, I broke my foot over the holidays and have been house bound for several weeks.
What I can tell you about evacuated tube solar water heaters is that a local company near me wanted $3,000 per 30 tube collector. I thought that was a bit steep, so I did a little bit of sourcing around and found some interesting options. I can purchase a minimum order of ten 30 tube collectors from Shanghai for about $240 USD each plus shipping. I didn't want to make that investment just yet because I wanted to see the technology close up and personal before such a transaction. So what I did was purchase a single 30 tube collector from Fitch Consulting in PA, USA for $595 USD. With the exchange rate, shipping and taxes, that worked out to $1200 CAD delivered to my doorstep. That was a substantial savings over what the local guy wanted. When I decide to purchase the minimum order of ten units from Shanghai, I am pretty sure that I can get all ten units delivered to my doorstep for about $6000 CAD in total. That is quite a substantial savings from the local guys also. I have tested a single tube by holding it in the sun for a few minutes and I can tell you that the outside of the glass is cold as ice but the inside copper thermal pipe is as hot as an iron. Flat plate solar collectors won't cut it, in my environment, so that is why I invested in the evacuated tube solar water heater.

I have never done the exact figures on this but have the same idea myself. I have to puit it on the shelf for a few years yet but I intend to experiment the same as you are talking.
It may run my ice/snow melting in my driveway at times. Lots of volume but not much temp?
"Drums" wrote in message

Im sure they won't but Im not looking to get much out of them in the dead of winter. I expect thay will help reduce my hot water heating costs and provide some heat assistance in the milder months. If the outside temp is say 30 and the water temp reaches 90F on a sunny day that adding heat to the house is it not? Remeber that this is not going to be a primary source. Im only looking to reduce my heating bill and hot water bill. 6 Flat plates should give me at least 200 gallons of hot or warm water storage. If insulated well that should reduce the heating load considerably on a sunny day no? I may well end up being that even building my own won't give me much of a payback but I don't think would be the case running 6 collectors.
"SolarFlare" wrote in message I don't think the panel units will develop as high of temperatures in the winter months. If you are in a warmer climate they should be fine.
"Drums" wrote in message I have looked into those. It would take years for a payback. That's the whole Idea with building my own. I have plenty of room. So what If I need 6 flat plates. That = the cost of 2 evacuated units.
"SolarFlair" wrote in message I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar thermal collectors but I would not save that much energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the rates we pay these days.
If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe it would be worth it.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message
Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords, evacuated tube solar

http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evacuated-tube-solar-hot-water.shtml

Perhaps just using the reflector/concentrator mirrors may do the job on a homemade unit for a lesser price.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message

The cost of the evacuated tube solar water heaters is coming down in price. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and our natural gas prices are going thru the roof. Last summer they were $7 per Gj and now they are $16 per Gj. On top of the ridiculous prices they have added administration fees, distribution fees, rider fees, taxes and whatever other fees that they can come up with. I am fed up with utility companies gouging me and I purchased my first solar water collector just before Christmas. Unfortunately, I broke my foot over the holidays and have been house bound for several weeks.
What I can tell you about evacuated tube solar water heaters is that a local company near me wanted $3,000 per 30 tube collector. I thought that was a bit steep, so I did a little bit of sourcing around and found some interesting options. I can purchase a minimum order of ten 30 tube collectors from Shanghai for about $240 USD each plus shipping. I didn't want to make that investment just yet because I wanted to see the technology close up and personal before such a transaction. So what I did was purchase a single 30 tube collector from Fitch Consulting in PA, USA for $595 USD. With the exchange rate, shipping and taxes, that worked out to $1200 CAD delivered to my doorstep. That was a substantial savings over what the local guy wanted. When I decide to purchase the minimum order of ten units from Shanghai, I am pretty sure that I can get all ten units delivered to my doorstep for about $6000 CAD in total. That is quite a substantial savings from the local guys also. I have tested a single tube by holding it in the sun for a few minutes and I can tell you that the outside of the glass is cold as ice but the inside copper thermal pipe is as hot as an iron. Flat plate solar collectors won't cut it, in my environment, so that is why I invested in the evacuated tube solar water heater.

Reflectors/concentrator mirrors would definitely help but there would be no insulation to keep the heat in. On one hand you are magnifying the heat by concentrating it, but on the other hand that same tube is exposed to the winter elements which negate the energy that you are trying to gain. In order to get any amount of efficiency from a solar collector in a cold environment, you must find a way to allow the sun's rays in while keeping the cold environment out. The evacuated tube solar collectors do just this. There is no better insulation than a vacuum at over R40 per inch.
http://www.apricus-solar.com/html/solar_collector_key_components.htm
--------------------------------------- SolarFlare Jan 20, 3:56 pm
Perhaps just using the reflector/concentrator mirrors may do the job on a homemade unit for a lesser price.

What if you Insulated the homeade flate plate very well? Yea they would be heavy but I can get large Double pane glass doors for almost nothing from salvage. They allready have an aluminum frame.

"SolarFlare" wrote in message

Perhaps just using the reflector/concentrator mirrors may do the job on a homemade unit for a lesser price.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message The cost of the evacuated tube solar water heaters is coming down in price. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and our natural gas prices are going thru the roof. Last summer they were $7 per Gj and now they are $16 per Gj. On top of the ridiculous prices they have added administration fees, distribution fees, rider fees, taxes and whatever other fees that they can come up with. I am fed up with utility companies gouging me and I purchased my first solar water collector just before Christmas. Unfortunately, I broke my foot over the holidays and have been house bound for several weeks.
What I can tell you about evacuated tube solar water heaters is that a local company near me wanted $3,000 per 30 tube collector. I thought that was a bit steep, so I did a little bit of sourcing around and found some interesting options. I can purchase a minimum order of ten 30 tube collectors from Shanghai for about $240 USD each plus shipping. I didn't want to make that investment just yet because I wanted to see the technology close up and personal before such a transaction. So what I did was purchase a single 30 tube collector from Fitch Consulting in PA, USA for $595 USD. With the exchange rate, shipping and taxes, that worked out to $1200 CAD delivered to my doorstep. That was a substantial savings over what the local guy wanted. When I decide to purchase the minimum order of ten units from Shanghai, I am pretty sure that I can get all ten units delivered to my doorstep for about $6000 CAD in total. That is quite a substantial savings from the local guys also. I have tested a single tube by holding it in the sun for a few minutes and I can tell you that the outside of the glass is cold as ice but the inside copper thermal pipe is as hot as an iron. Flat plate solar collectors won't cut it, in my environment, so that is why I invested in the evacuated tube solar water heater.

The biggest problem I have metally encountered on this is any kind of concentrator takes a solar tracker and they get complex and cost money and moving space.
"Drums" wrote in message

What if you Insulated the homeade flate plate very well? Yea they would be heavy but I can get large Double pane glass doors for almost nothing from salvage. They allready have an aluminum frame.

"SolarFlare" wrote in message Perhaps just using the reflector/concentrator mirrors may do the job on a homemade unit for a lesser price.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message
The cost of the evacuated tube solar water heaters is coming down in price. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and our natural gas prices are going thru the roof. Last summer they were $7 per Gj and now they are $16 per Gj. On top of the ridiculous prices they have added administration fees, distribution fees, rider fees, taxes and whatever other fees that they can come up with. I am fed up with utility companies gouging me and I purchased my first solar water collector just before Christmas. Unfortunately, I broke my foot over the holidays and have been house bound for several weeks.
What I can tell you about evacuated tube solar water heaters is that a local company near me wanted $3,000 per 30 tube collector. I thought that was a bit steep, so I did a little bit of sourcing around and found some interesting options. I can purchase a minimum order of ten 30 tube collectors from Shanghai for about $240 USD each plus shipping. I didn't want to make that investment just yet because I wanted to see the technology close up and personal before such a transaction. So what I did was purchase a single 30 tube collector from Fitch Consulting in PA, USA for $595 USD. With the exchange rate, shipping and taxes, that worked out to $1200 CAD delivered to my doorstep. That was a substantial savings over what the local guy wanted. When I decide to purchase the minimum order of ten units from Shanghai, I am pretty sure that I can get all ten units delivered to my doorstep for about $6000 CAD in total. That is quite a substantial savings from the local guys also. I have tested a single tube by holding it in the sun for a few minutes and I can tell you that the outside of the glass is cold as ice but the inside copper thermal pipe is as hot as an iron. Flat plate solar collectors won't cut it, in my environment, so that is why I invested in the evacuated tube solar water heater.

That idea would certainly help insulate the collector but not nearly as efficient as a vacuum which has a huge insulation factor of R40 or greater per inch. It is the insulation factor that is the most important here for the colder climates.
I discovered a very simple solar air collector by accident. I work a lot of night shifts, so during the daytime I am trying to get at least 8 hours of sleep. One day, the light coming in my bedroom window was so bright that I just couldn't get any sleep. So, I hung a black blanket in the window to block out the sunshine. I woke up a few hours later in a very hot room. So, if you want a simple idea to heat your house when you are away for the day at work, just hang black sheets in the south facing windows of your home. It works very well.
But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get. These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest insulation factor available.
Vacuum technology is now finding its way into insulating buildings, refrigerators, etc. http://www.glacierbay.com/vacpanelinfo.asp
---------------------------------- Drums Jan 20, 6:26 pm
What if you Insulated the homemade flate plate very well? Yea they would be heavy but I can get large Double pane glass doors for almost nothing from salvage. They allready have an aluminum frame.

Buy_Sell wrote: ....

But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get. These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest insulation factor available. ....

It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for, it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the balance point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via conduction, radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels, reflectors or both.
Anthony

I could agree with this statement to a point. This point will be on the cold overcast days when you need the heat more than ever. Your solar heat gains are very low and your heat losses are huge from poor insulation. Your very large collector is taking on very large heat losses and you are getting no return on your investment. The idea of using water is to provide a means of long term heat storage from your solar water heater. When it gets really cold outside, a flat plate collector has massive heat losses. The bigger the collector, the bigger the heat loss. I went thru the same process as everyone else. I've tried building these things on my own. I spend countless hours scrounging around in the metal recycling yards, trying to find an inexpensive solution to the problem. But it comes down to one thing, insulation. A flat plate solar collector will reach a point where it simply will not work, no matter how big it is. In colder climates, it's heat losses outweigh any solar gains. Insulation, Insulation, Insulation. I can't stress it enough. That is where you will get the best bang for the buck... -------------------------------------------------- Anthony Matonak Jan 21, 1:15 am
Buy_Sell wrote:
....

But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get. These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest insulation factor available.

....
It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for, it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the balance point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via conduction, radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels, reflectors or both.
Anthony

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:03:16 -0500, "SolarFlare" wrote:

The biggest problem I have metally encountered on this is any kind of concentrator takes a solar tracker and they get complex and cost money and moving space.

Perhaps if you actually built something, or even listened to those who have, then you'd find it's not as difficult as you've "metally encountered".
Wayne

There is no doubt you can't beat that however I don't need the heat the most on any day because I have an LP furnace. The system I am proposing is strictly supplemental. The idea is to reduce the average draw on the furnace and hot water heater. If I had the spare cash I would spring for the vac tube unit.
"Buy_Sell" wrote in message

I could agree with this statement to a point. This point will be on the cold overcast days when you need the heat more than ever. Your solar heat gains are very low and your heat losses are huge from poor insulation. Your very large collector is taking on very large heat losses and you are getting no return on your investment. The idea of using water is to provide a means of long term heat storage from your solar water heater. When it gets really cold outside, a flat plate collector has massive heat losses. The bigger the collector, the bigger the heat loss. I went thru the same process as everyone else. I've tried building these things on my own. I spend countless hours scrounging around in the metal recycling yards, trying to find an inexpensive solution to the problem. But it comes down to one thing, insulation. A flat plate solar collector will reach a point where it simply will not work, no matter how big it is. In colder climates, it's heat losses outweigh any solar gains. Insulation, Insulation, Insulation. I can't stress it enough. That is where you will get the best bang for the buck... -------------------------------------------------- Anthony Matonak Jan 21, 1:15 am
Buy_Sell wrote:
... But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get. These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest insulation factor available.
...
It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for, it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the balance point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via conduction, radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels, reflectors or both.
Anthony