Home-Made Power

Oil, coal, hydrogen, fuel cells, hybrid cars, renewables, geothermal, economical growth



PF Hz and Volts

I have a 900W 2-stroke "King Canada" generator. (Inherited it). On my day off decided to see what it would run. I have a six circuit manual transfer panel hooked up to the house service. And a Kill a watt meter.
Running a trouble light, 60 watts @ 61- 62 Hz and a Pf of 1 @ 120 - 121 v.
Running the fridge drawing about 350 watts @ 61-62 Hz and a Pf of .9 @ 120 -123 v, it sounded about right, about 1\2 of what the gen had to offer.
Running the furnace (20 yr old, 1\3 hp blower I think) drawing about 300 watts @ 69 - 73 Hz and a Pf of .6 @ 130 - 135 v (it sounded as if the generator was putting out about all it had).
Because the Pf is so low, would that cause the voltage\Hz to go so high? Also, is running the furnace at this voltage/Hz gonna wazzoo the motor?
I also have a 1k Yamaha inverter-generator which can run the fridge, but will not start the furnace, again about what I expect between reading this NG and playing with it.
TIA Rob....................

PF Hz and Volts

"Rob.....in Courtice" wrote in message

I also have a 1k Yamaha inverter-generator which can run the fridge, but will not start the furnace, again about what I expect between reading this NG and playing with it.

If you get creative, you should be able to figure out how to make that Yamaha start that furnace. I would start by adding some starting capacitance to see if that reduces the starting surge. You may also try plugging in a moderate load to get the generator to rev up before you try to start the blower.
Vaughn

PF Hz and Volts

"Rob.....in Courtice" wrote in message

I have a 900W 2-stroke "King Canada" generator. (Inherited it). On my day off decided to see what it would run. I have a six circuit manual transfer panel hooked up to the house service. And a Kill a watt meter.
Running a trouble light, 60 watts @ 61- 62 Hz and a Pf of 1 @ 120 - 121 v.
Running the fridge drawing about 350 watts @ 61-62 Hz and a Pf of .9 @ 120 -123 v, it sounded about right, about 1\2 of what the gen had to offer.
Running the furnace (20 yr old, 1\3 hp blower I think) drawing about 300 watts @ 69 - 73 Hz and a Pf of .6 @ 130 - 135 v (it sounded as if the generator was putting out about all it had).
Because the Pf is so low, would that cause the voltage\Hz to go so high? Also, is running the furnace at this voltage/Hz gonna wazzoo the motor?
I also have a 1k Yamaha inverter-generator which can run the fridge, but will not start the furnace, again about what I expect between reading this NG and playing with it.
TIA

Sounds like the real power required by the furnace is around 450w and its inductive. The generator may have a problem with inductive loads. I would try the fridge and another load to see what the max is. According to the King web site its a kcg-950 with 800w rating. A good old transformer/rectifier battery charger may add enough capacitance to find out if that is the case.
Cheers

PF Hz and Volts

Hi Vaughn,

I would start by adding some starting capacitance to see if that reduces the starting surge.

Probably a good idea, but over my head.

You may also try plugging in a moderate load to get the generator to rev up before you try to start the blower.

I will try this. Never thought to try without the eco throttle. My next experiment (?) is to try running half the generator panel off one generator, and the other half off the other.
My next question for the group. I have NO 220V loads, and both gens have floating neutrals. I have the 'twist lock' plug split into 2 extention cords. 3 on one side, 3 on the other. I'm concerened about all the neutrals being bonded. The two hots are, and will remain seperate. My thoughts are that since I run some circuts off the generator, and some off the grid at the same time, running 2 generators on the trans panel should be a similar situation. But I though I'd ask first.
Using the eco mode on the yamaha for light variable loads, and the screaming 2-stroke (not really that loud) for the loads that require full (?) power, and run often.
Before my dime runs out.... will the fulcuating Hz hurt the furnace motor?
thanks for reading :)
..........Rob

PF Hz and Volts

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:08:18 -0400, "Rob.....in Courtice" wrote:

I have a 900W 2-stroke "King Canada" generator. (Inherited it). On my day off decided to see what it would run. I have a six circuit manual transfer panel hooked up to the house service. And a Kill a watt meter.
Running a trouble light, 60 watts @ 61- 62 Hz and a Pf of 1 @ 120 - 121 v.
Running the fridge drawing about 350 watts @ 61-62 Hz and a Pf of .9 @ 120 -123 v, it sounded about right, about 1\2 of what the gen had to offer.
Running the furnace (20 yr old, 1\3 hp blower I think) drawing about 300 watts @ 69 - 73 Hz and a Pf of .6 @ 130 - 135 v (it sounded as if the generator was putting out about all it had).
Because the Pf is so low, would that cause the voltage\Hz to go so high? Also, is running the furnace at this voltage/Hz gonna wazzoo the motor?

The problem here, I suspect, is that the crappy waveform from the cheap generator and moderately low PF are fooling the KAW. It is almost impossible for that little generator to run that fast. That would be 3600 * (69/60) = 4140 RPM. It would have been obvious to you if the generator had been screaming like that. If this is the kind of generator that I think it is, the field would probably have lost excitation, cutting off the output.
On the other end, the fan motor would have been over-speeding, at minimum, making a racket and at worst, the blower wheel would have come apart.
A couple of things you can try. One is to connect a resistive load of a couple hundred watts to the generator. This may clean up the waveform enough that the KAW is no longer being fooled.
Another thing you can do is to run the furnace blower for awhile (hour or two) while monitoring its temperature. If it were really operating on power that far out of spec, it would likely overheat rapidly. If you can lay your hand on the motor casing without getting burned, then the motor is OK. Be sure to leave the cover on the air handling unit except for when you're checking. Letting the blower pull ambient air instead of from the return duct will overload it.
The generator has to supply the "wattless current" that the motor draws because of the low PF even though it's not "real" power. The term is "lagging VARs" (Volt-Amp Reactive). Leading VARs can also be supplied by a capacitor, the process being known as "power factor correction." A capacitor of suitable size is simply connected in parallel with the motor.
One can calculate the size cap to supply the appropriate amount of leading VARs but it's easier to simply substitute a variety of caps while watching the line current upstream of the cap. Select caps until the line current drops to the minimum value.
A motor run capacitor just like the one already on the fan works fine. I'd start out with about a 25 microfarad unit. Using utility power, watch the KAW and see what the PF and amps do. Add another unit of capacitance, say, 5 or 10 uF. If the PF improves and the amps drop, you're on the right track. If they don't then you already have too much capacitance.
Shop around for the caps. Many HVAC shops will give them to you from removed old units. So will electric motor shops. New, the cap shouldn't cost over $20. I've been working with almost the same problem with someone else via email and I've been amazed at the rip-off prices some outfits quoted him. One was >$100.
The reason that you want to do this is that it will unload the generator so that you can run other loads simultaneously. 300 watts is about right for a 1/3 hp blower motor. With the PF adjusted to 1, that leaves you 600 watts for other loads. As it is, even though the real power is only 300 watts, supplying the necessary VARS is heavily loading the generator, leaving little room for other loads.
John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Some people are like a Slinky .. not really good for anything but you still smile when you shove them down the stairs.

PF Hz and Volts

On Oct 8, 6:08 pm, "Rob.....in Courtice" wrote:

    I have a 900W 2-stroke "King Canada" generator.  (Inherited it)..  On my day off decided to see what it would run.  I have a six circuit manual transfer panel hooked up to the house service. And a Kill a watt meter.
Running a trouble light, 60 watts @ 61- 62 Hz and a Pf of 1 @ 120 - 121 v..
Running the fridge drawing about 350 watts @ 61-62 Hz and a Pf of .9 @ 120 -123 v,  it sounded  about right, about 1\2 of what the gen had to offer.
Running the furnace (20 yr old, 1\3 hp blower I think)  drawing about 300 watts @ 69 - 73 Hz and a Pf of .6 @ 130 - 135 v  (it sounded as if the generator was putting out about all it had).
Because the Pf is so low, would that cause the voltage\Hz to go so high? Also, is running the furnace at this voltage/Hz gonna wazzoo the motor?
 I also have a 1k Yamaha inverter-generator  which can run the fridge, but will not start the furnace, again about what I expect between reading this NG and playing with it.
    TIA               Rob....................

RPM is to high, 60 hz 120v will equal 3600 rpm, I suggest get a cheap tach-rpm meter and see what you do. But as load increases on cheaper units that dont have any voltage control or poor govenors is V and Hz decreases alot at full load, so who set it up may have been using bigger loads and then it runs at 60v 120v. Figure your load needed, but today you can on the carb lower rpm to 120v 60hz. You then want to test it to full load to understand how the unit handles full load.


Energy, oil and gas > Home-Made Power

Travelers and hotels or travel site. Flights by vacation and cars.