Solar
Oil, coal, hydrogen, fuel cells, hybrid cars, renewables, geothermal, economical growth
Seems everyone realizes solar works now. The public lands belong to the people. Private companies have no business on public lands of the United States. Be it ANWR or utility lines. Why not set up a nationwide remote net metering law. Where any citizen can set up their own PV power plant on BLM land and kick off all the utility wannabees.
Bill wrote:
Seems everyone realizes solar works now. The public lands belong to the people. Private companies have no business on public lands of the United States. Be it ANWR or utility lines. Why not set up a nationwide remote net metering law. Where any citizen can set up their own PV power plant on BLM land and kick off all the utility wannabees.
You're going to trek to the desert and install 50 watts of solar cells and kicked out the utilities that can actually provide useful amounts of electricity?
Tell me more about how this works.
"Bill" wrote in message
Seems everyone realizes solar works now. The public lands belong to the people. Private companies have no business on public lands of the United States. Be it ANWR or utility lines. Why not set up a nationwide remote net metering law. Where any citizen can set up their own PV power plant on BLM land and kick off all the utility wannabees.
Government is not people, private companies are people.
Tell me more about how this works.
The way it works is say 30 million acres are dedicated to solar. Thus every person in the United States would be given rights to 1/10th of an acre. Yes utilities are people however, they should ony be entitled to their fair share or 1/10th an acre. Say you install 4000 square feet on your rights that is enough energy or 480 KW-hrs per day. Maybe you install this amount over a generation. You should have the legal right to connect to the grid. Thus, you would be entitled to use 480 Kw-Hrs of electricity a day and extra and you would be paid the retail rate for electricity minus the grid maintenence fee. So you would be paid about $50 a day on top of not having an electric bill.
The utilities want it the other way they want to control the pv rights on your land and then have the gall to charge you the market rate.
Bill wrote:
Tell me more about how this works.
The way it works is say 30 million acres are dedicated to solar. Thus
where did that number come from? let's say 500 billion acres are for solar.
every person in the United States would be given rights to 1/10th of an acre. Yes utilities are people however, they should ony be entitled to their fair share or 1/10th an acre. Say you install 4000 square feet on your rights that is enough energy or 480 KW-hrs per day. Maybe you install this amount over a generation. You should have the legal right to connect to the grid. Thus, you would be entitled to use 480 Kw-Hrs of electricity a day and extra and you would be paid the retail rate for electricity minus the grid maintenence fee. So you would be paid about $50 a day on top of not having an electric bill.
The utilities want it the other way they want to control the pv rights on your land and then have the gall to charge you the market rate.
what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The way it works is say 30 million acres are dedicated to solar. Thus
where did that number come from? let's say 500 billion acres are for solar.
Because 500 billion acres is over 10 times the amount of land on earth. 30 million acres is about the size of Iowa. Whether you like to believe it or not land is scarce in America. If every person owned 10 acres on earth we would run out of land.
what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The scam is that you can't sell at market rates. You have to net meter and after 2.5% of households reach net metering limit they will end it. If you make more than you use, they get your electricity for free. They expect you to buy it at market rates. However they set the market rates.
On Jul 11, 5:30 pm, Bill wrote:
what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The scam is that you can't sell at market rates. You have to net meter and after 2.5% of households reach net metering limit they will end it. If you make more than you use, they get your electricity for free. They expect you to buy it at market rates. However they set the market rates.
How is that a scam? Prior to the 2.5% threshold, you sell excess electricity at retail, which is a pretty good deal for you. If you generate exactly what you use, you get electricity for $0 (neglecting your non-trivial investment). The power company gets nothing but a minimal account charge, and for that they have to maintain lines, generating stations, trucks, employees, etc. The sell-back at full retail is an incentive to get people to invest early. Once the threshold is reached, as I understand it you sell back at wholesale rates, not retail. This is simply the power company buying electricity from you, who are now essentially a power generating company, at wholesale. They resell at retail, and use the difference for maintenance and profits.
So, what's your problem?
Bill wrote:
The way it works is say 30 million acres are dedicated to solar. ?Thus
where did that number come from? let's say 500 billion acres are for solar.
Because 500 billion acres is over 10 times the amount of land on earth. 30 million acres is about the size of Iowa. Whether you like to believe it or not land is scarce in America. If every person owned 10 acres on earth we would run out of land.
There's plenty of land in America for the population we have.
What if every person owned 10 cars, would we run out of cars?
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:35:07 -0700 (PDT), websurf1@cox.net wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:30 pm, Bill wrote: what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The scam is that you can't sell at market rates. You have to net meter and after 2.5% of households reach net metering limit they will end it. If you make more than you use, they get your electricity for free. They expect you to buy it at market rates. However they set the market rates.
How is that a scam? Prior to the 2.5% threshold, you sell excess electricity at retail, which is a pretty good deal for you. If you generate exactly what you use, you get electricity for $0 (neglecting your non-trivial investment). The power company gets nothing but a minimal account charge, and for that they have to maintain lines, generating stations, trucks, employees, etc. The sell-back at full retail is an incentive to get people to invest early. Once the threshold is reached, as I understand it you sell back at wholesale rates, not retail. This is simply the power company buying electricity from you, who are now essentially a power generating company, at wholesale. They resell at retail, and use the difference for maintenance and profits.
So, what's your problem?
The real problem which isnt being addressed yet is that the Power Company has to buy your power whether they need it or not. You on the other hand are not forced to buy the Power Companies power. In the long term the Power Company will go broke if its forced to buy power it doesnt need or want. What other businesses are forced to buy products they dont need or want simply because some one else has them for sale.
Bill wrote:
Seems everyone realizes solar works now.
At VAST expense.
So ?
Graham
On Jul 12, 3:05 am, Eeyore wrote:
Bill wrote: Seems everyone realizes solar works now.
At VAST expense.
So ?
Graham
The energy we use now is also vastly expensive. It's just that it doesn't show up in the energy bills. Much of what we use is subsidized. The damage from pollution isn't factored in. Land reclamation isn't always paid by the companies that mine the resources. Tax benefits are common for oil, gas, coal, etc. Solar energy can't compete unless it too receives subsidies.
On Jul 11, 10:02 pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:35:07 -0700 (PDT), websu...@cox.net wrote: On Jul 11, 5:30 pm, Bill wrote: what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The scam is that you can't sell at market rates. You have to net meter and after 2.5% of households reach net metering limit they will end it. If you make more than you use, they get your electricity for free. They expect you to buy it at market rates. However they set the market rates.
How is that a scam? Prior to the 2.5% threshold, you sell excess electricity at retail, which is a pretty good deal for you. If you generate exactly what you use, you get electricity for $0 (neglecting your non-trivial investment). The power company gets nothing but a minimal account charge, and for that they have to maintain lines, generating stations, trucks, employees, etc. The sell-back at full retail is an incentive to get people to invest early. Once the threshold is reached, as I understand it you sell back at wholesale rates, not retail. This is simply the power company buying electricity from you, who are now essentially a power generating company, at wholesale. They resell at retail, and use the difference for maintenance and profits.
So, what's your problem?
The real problem which isnt being addressed yet is that the Power Company has to buy your power whether they need it or not. You on the other hand are not forced to buy the Power Companies power. In the long term the Power Company will go broke if its forced to buy power it doesnt need or want. What other businesses are forced to buy products they dont need or want simply because some one else has them for sale.
I don't see the problem. The power companies are going to produce or buy all the power that can be consumed. The only question is the source. Electrical energy on the grid can't be stored--it is generated as it is used. Solar can be an excellent source in the southwest, since it will be best available when it is best used--in the head of the day when the AC is running!
There is no shortage of a market for power. Occasionally there is a shortage of power. If we have solar, we burn a bit less coal, gas, or atoms.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:13:27 -0700 (PDT), websurf1@cox.net wrote:
On Jul 11, 10:02 pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:35:07 -0700 (PDT), websu...@cox.net wrote: On Jul 11, 5:30 pm, Bill wrote: what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The scam is that you can't sell at market rates. You have to net meter and after 2.5% of households reach net metering limit they will end it. If you make more than you use, they get your electricity for free. They expect you to buy it at market rates. However they set the market rates.
How is that a scam? Prior to the 2.5% threshold, you sell excess electricity at retail, which is a pretty good deal for you. If you generate exactly what you use, you get electricity for $0 (neglecting your non-trivial investment). The power company gets nothing but a minimal account charge, and for that they have to maintain lines, generating stations, trucks, employees, etc. The sell-back at full retail is an incentive to get people to invest early. Once the threshold is reached, as I understand it you sell back at wholesale rates, not retail. This is simply the power company buying electricity from you, who are now essentially a power generating company, at wholesale. They resell at retail, and use the difference for maintenance and profits.
So, what's your problem?
The real problem which isnt being addressed yet is that the Power Company has to buy your power whether they need it or not. You on the other hand are not forced to buy the Power Companies power. In the long term the Power Company will go broke if its forced to buy power it doesnt need or want. What other businesses are forced to buy products they dont need or want simply because some one else has them for sale.
I don't see the problem. The power companies are going to produce or buy all the power that can be consumed. The only question is the source. Electrical energy on the grid can't be stored--it is generated as it is used. Solar can be an excellent source in the southwest, since it will be best available when it is best used--in the head of the day when the AC is running!
There is no shortage of a market for power. Occasionally there is a shortage of power. If we have solar, we burn a bit less coal, gas, or atoms.
Power Companies produce power at a wholesale price which they then sell to retailers or retail the power themselves. The retail price includes the cost of the distribution system and its maintenance. If the Power company has to buy power from home users at the retail rate, they can only resell it at the retail rate which means they make no profit, but they still have to pay for the cost and maintenance of the power distribution system. Eventually, the power company will go broke because its unable to sell any of its own power, but it still has to maintain the distribution system. 3/4 of the price of retail power is the cost of distribution, not the cost of generation. The economic viability of a coal or gas or nuclear power plant requires that it make power all the time.
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:45:50 GMT, mauried@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:13:27 -0700 (PDT), websurf1@cox.net wrote:
On Jul 11, 10:02 pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:35:07 -0700 (PDT), websu...@cox.net wrote: On Jul 11, 5:30 pm, Bill wrote: what a scam- having to buy electricty at market rates.
The scam is that you can't sell at market rates. You have to net meter and after 2.5% of households reach net metering limit they will end it. If you make more than you use, they get your electricity for free. They expect you to buy it at market rates. However they set the market rates.
How is that a scam? Prior to the 2.5% threshold, you sell excess electricity at retail, which is a pretty good deal for you. If you generate exactly what you use, you get electricity for $0 (neglecting your non-trivial investment). The power company gets nothing but a minimal account charge, and for that they have to maintain lines, generating stations, trucks, employees, etc. The sell-back at full retail is an incentive to get people to invest early. Once the threshold is reached, as I understand it you sell back at wholesale rates, not retail. This is simply the power company buying electricity from you, who are now essentially a power generating company, at wholesale. They resell at retail, and use the difference for maintenance and profits.
So, what's your problem?
The real problem which isnt being addressed yet is that the Power Company has to buy your power whether they need it or not. You on the other hand are not forced to buy the Power Companies power. In the long term the Power Company will go broke if its forced to buy power it doesnt need or want. What other businesses are forced to buy products they dont need or want simply because some one else has them for sale.
I don't see the problem. The power companies are going to produce or buy all the power that can be consumed. The only question is the source. Electrical energy on the grid can't be stored--it is generated as it is used. Solar can be an excellent source in the southwest, since it will be best available when it is best used--in the head of the day when the AC is running!
There is no shortage of a market for power. Occasionally there is a shortage of power. If we have solar, we burn a bit less coal, gas, or atoms.
Power Companies produce power at a wholesale price which they then sell to retailers or retail the power themselves. The retail price includes the cost of the distribution system and its maintenance. If the Power company has to buy power from home users at the retail rate, they can only resell it at the retail rate which means they make no profit, but they still have to pay for the cost and maintenance of the power distribution system.
Incorrect.. Energy co profit would average somewhere between 10 and 20%.
Average grid loss is around 10%. ~ 3-5% at night, ~20% during peak daytime hours(A/C)..
Much of those I^2R losses would be offset by point of use power generation.
Less than 1% loss from PV producer to consumer on same transformer, and improves efficiency of remaining local grid loads.
(I.E. reduced current flowing thru transformer & grid, improves eff and reduces wear & tear.).
Thus Energy co can sell those recovered kWh's to somebody else for a profit and reduce it's maint costs. .
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