Costco and BP Solar in California?

Hi,
I recently caught the Solar Power bug. I was in a Costco in Southern California and I happened onto this guy who was promoting an offer to Costco members. He basically represented Solar Systems International, LLC (http://www.solarsystemsintl.com/). Their website's About Us link states:
"Solar Systems International, LLC is a sales and marketing company that offers scaleable turnkey solar electric systems to the commercial and residential consumer."
They seem to be a reseller of BP Solar products but its not clear to me that they actually staff the installation or if that is contracted out. From what I managed to gather in a couple days of web scouring, BP Solar seems to be a respectable purveyor of solar products.
I called Solar Systems International yesterday and was told a salesman would call me back. They haven't yet and in the mean time I've been thinking and wondering if I should pursue them (seeing as how they don't seem that eager for my business).
Does anybody here have any experience or opinion of the PV Solar Power deals that Costco is offering? Are they really discounting anything? The price sheet that the guy was distributing at Costco is pretty much verbatim what you can find on the Solar Systems International website.
My opinion of Costco stuff in general is that it usually repackaged exclusively for them. Sometimes you get really great deals with either prices or content that you can't get elsewhere. Sometimes you end up paying the same or more for something that is not the latest and greatest.
I've pinged the BP Solar website for a home quote to get a frame of reference but I anticipate they are going to simply turn it over to yet another local middle man.
I am really stoked about adding a PV solar power system to my home. I just want to make sure I am not making a mistake in thinking I am getting the best option through Costco.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks!
Mike

mikehoyt@gmail.com wrote:

I recently caught the Solar Power bug. I was in a Costco in Southern California and I happened onto this guy who was promoting an offer to Costco members. He basically represented Solar Systems International, LLC (http://www.solarsystemsintl.com/).

And that's just about where the alarm bells start ringing. Thing is, I'm a millwright/maintenance mechanic by trade. And subsequently, electrician and plumber too. I like hats ;-). Anyway, the problem I see here is if, and when, anything goes wrong, or odd, or needs tweaking. Too many links in the chain. You have a manufacturer, a re-seller (Costco), another re-seller (SSI), and then an as yet unnamed installer. Something goes wrong, who fixes it? Who pays for the repair? Who will really care?
Their website's About Us link

states:
"Solar Systems International, LLC is a sales and marketing company that offers scaleable turnkey solar electric systems to the commercial and residential consumer."

Wow, how original ;-). Seriously, though, all R.E. say that. I say that. The problem is that I *also* say "custom design, installation, and maintenance". And I'd bet you could find a dozen installers down there that would, too.

From what I managed to gather in a couple days of web scouring, BP Solar seems to be a respectable purveyor of solar products.

Well, yeah ;-). As much as Shell or Kyocera is, too ;-). They're a big player.

I called Solar Systems International yesterday and was told a salesman would call me back. They haven't yet and in the mean time I've been thinking and wondering if I should pursue them (seeing as how they don't seem that eager for my business).

I'd bet they've got lots of business. It's probably not them being rude, just busy. You're "in the line.."

I've pinged the BP Solar website for a home quote to get a frame of reference but I anticipate they are going to simply turn it over to yet another local middle man.

I'd bet on it.

I am really stoked about adding a PV solar power system to my home. I just want to make sure I am not making a mistake in thinking I am getting the best option through Costco.
Any thoughts on this?

Costco (also called Price Club up here) has the reputation of a "fire and forget" you bought it, got a good price, don't bug them later. That's ok with a gallon of ketchup, but I'd be shy about dumping tens of thousands of dollars on a PV system with them.
Go local. There are organizations down there that regulate and certify (loosely) installers. Someone in here will mention them, I'm sure. Keep the chain short, and you'll be happier in the end.
DJ

DJ wrote:

mikehoyt@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

I am really stoked about adding a PV solar power system to my home. I just want to make sure I am not making a mistake in thinking I am getting the best option through Costco.
Any thoughts on this?
Costco (also called Price Club up here) has the reputation of a "fire and forget" you bought it, got a good price, don't bug them later. That's ok with a gallon of ketchup, but I'd be shy about dumping tens of thousands of dollars on a PV system with them.

I'm a Costco member, and also a PV owner. I went with a local installer for my PV system, and I'm very happy with the result.
Having said that, I wouldn't immediately write Costco off. I've never had any trouble returning anything to Costco. When it comes to another popular big-ticket item, namely large-screen televisions, the word on the street is that Costco has a no-questions-asked exchange policy. They sell some off-brand screens whose quality can be good, but not as uniform as the name brands. So the strategy I've heard recommended is to buy one of these screens at Costco, and if it has a flaw, send it back and get another one.
Where's "up here," DJ? Maybe there are regional differences between Costco stores? I'm in Silicon Valley (Northern California).

Go local. There are organizations down there that regulate and certify (loosely) installers. Someone in here will mention them, I'm sure. Keep the chain short, and you'll be happier in the end.

I agree that the number of companies involved in the transaction seems to be too large. Read the contract. If you can get the biggest company, Costco, to stand behind the work, then it might work out for you.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ | Ladasky Home Solar, Inc.: blowing sunshine up your | | power grid since March 24, 2005. Fiat lux! | +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ | Uptime Downtime kWh generated kWh consumed | | 324 days none 5906 6127 | +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

This is great input guys. Thank you very much.
Mike

So after giving it more thought, I am considering giving Real Goods a shot. Any opinions on their product offerings, customer satisfactions, etc? Their pedigree with regards to Solar would appear to be second to none.
Thanks,
Mike

Overpriced and who will install for you? Real Goods? Keep looking........Read Home Power magazine!

On 22 Feb 2006 15:54:07 -0800, "mikehoyt@gmail.com" wrote:

So after giving it more thought, I am considering giving Real Goods a shot. Any opinions on their product offerings, customer satisfactions, etc? Their pedigree with regards to Solar would appear to be second to none.
Thanks,
Mike

Their focus has changed considerably over the years. Their off-grid type stuff these days seems to be limited and expensive. Here are some links you might find useful http://store.solar-electric.com/ http://www.solarsolar.com/ http://beyondoilsolar.com/
Wayne

Wayne,
I am actually interested in what I guess is "on-grid". I am wanting a metered system. Am I understanding you correctly and would that change your recommendation?
I'll check out these links. Thanks.
Mike
wmbjk wrote:

On 22 Feb 2006 15:54:07 -0800, "mikehoyt@gmail.com" mikehoyt@gmail.com> wrote:
So after giving it more thought, I am considering giving Real Goods a shot. Any opinions on their product offerings, customer satisfactions, etc? Their pedigree with regards to Solar would appear to be second to none.
Thanks,
Mike
Their focus has changed considerably over the years. Their off-grid type stuff these days seems to be limited and expensive. Here are some links you might find useful http://store.solar-electric.com/ http://www.solarsolar.com/ http://beyondoilsolar.com/
Wayne

Real Goods is usually regarded as the Yuppy place to buy solar if you have a lot of money you don't really need :P
And a lot of companies have been around longer and done more with solar, they just have not done that type of marketing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- wrote in message

So after giving it more thought, I am considering giving Real Goods a shot. Any opinions on their product offerings, customer satisfactions, etc? Their pedigree with regards to Solar would appear to be second to none.
Thanks,
Mike

On 22 Feb 2006 18:21:12 -0800, "mikehoyt@gmail.com" wrote:

Wayne,
I am actually interested in what I guess is "on-grid". I am wanting a metered system. Am I understanding you correctly and would that change your recommendation?

On and off-grid components are the same for the most part, and most retailers can fix you up with either. There may be some installers who are only proficient in one type though.
I expect that RG could still be a good source for those magnets that can supposedly replace laundry detergent, or for hemp sun dresses. ;-) Although RG is likely just as pricey for those items as they were for the MX60 I purchased recently. They wanted $650 while competitors charge $500.
Since the MX60 is very popular, it's a good item to use to compare web sites. Here's RG's charge controller page http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/list.cfm/dp/4600/sd/1501. Note that the MX is MIA. If you search though, you can get to this page http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp=1604&ts=2025812&kw=mx60 Now, try the charge controller page at this site http://store.solar-electric.com/chco.html, which has both the MX and some helpful technical articles. Here's their MX page http://store.solar-electric.com/outpowmxmp.html. Better description including specs, plus a link to the temperature sensor.
Wayne

wmbjk wrote:

On 22 Feb 2006 18:21:12 -0800, "mikehoyt@gmail.com" mikehoyt@gmail.com> wrote:
Wayne,
I am actually interested in what I guess is "on-grid". I am wanting a metered system. Am I understanding you correctly and would that change your recommendation?

On and off-grid components are the same for the most part, and most retailers can fix you up with either. There may be some installers who are only proficient in one type though.
Jim Baber wrote:

I just could not let wmbjk's comment stand. If I was assisting someone to pick an installer and an installer made that statement, that would be the end of his consideration... The only common parts are the panels.
The inverters are quite different, and the wiring of the panels is quite different. Generally on grid panels are wired in series not parallel to take the advantage of higher voltage wiring having lower resistance losses. Mine are, in fact I have 18 KC158s in each of my 4 strings and are running at about 390 VDC as I write. I will admit that the panels are common. I do not have any batteries in my on grid system so I do not need charge controllers either. I admit also that I have to have HVDC disconnect switches and they are quite expensive as far as switches are concerned, but they are less that $100 (needed 2).

I expect that RG could still be a good source for those magnets that can supposedly replace laundry detergent, or for hemp sun dresses. ;-) Although RG is likely just as pricey for those items as they were for the MX60 I purchased recently. They wanted $650 while competitors charge $500.
Since the MX60 is very popular, it's a good item to use to compare web sites. Here's RG's charge controller page http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/list.cfm/dp/4600/sd/1501. Note that the MX is MIA. If you search though, you can get to this page http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp=1604&ts=2025812&kw=mx60 Now, try the charge controller page at this site http://store.solar-electric.com/chco.html, which has both the MX and some helpful technical articles. Here's their MX page http://store.solar-electric.com/outpowmxmp.html. Better description including specs, plus a link to the temperature sensor.
Wayne

Not really. Both use inverters, just different types. Both may or may not use batteries (though we do not recommend them for grid tie).
But the wiring etc is a LOT simpler for grid tie systems with no batteries, and so is the efficiency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Jim Baber" wrote in message

Jim Baber wrote: I just could not let wmbjk's comment stand. If I was assisting someone to pick an installer and an installer made that statement, that would be the end of his consideration... The only common parts are the panels.

Windsun wrote:

Not really. Both use inverters, just different types. Both may or may not use batteries (though we do not recommend them for grid tie).
But the wiring etc is a LOT simpler for grid tie systems with no batteries, and so is the efficiency.

I was at a big grid-tie seminar earlier this week, with reps from surrette (Rolls to you 'mericans ;-), OutBack, EvergreenSolar, and speakers on various topics related to the nuts and bolts of grid-tie systems. OutBack, which incidentally does not recommend batteryless grid-tie, demonstrated a ~5% efficiency deficit of their battery grid-tie strategy compared to a battery-less grid-tie. That's not alot of loss, considering what you get from it. Mostly it's in, as I understood it, in the battery charging strategy.
DJ

The real kicker in battery grid tie systems is the maintenance and cost of the batteries. Over the 20+ year lifespan of the system, the batteries can be the most expensive part, plus the hassle of changing them out every 5-10 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- "DJ" wrote in message

I was at a big grid-tie seminar earlier this week, with reps from surrette (Rolls to you 'mericans ;-), OutBack, EvergreenSolar, and speakers on various topics related to the nuts and bolts of grid-tie systems. OutBack, which incidentally does not recommend batteryless grid-tie, demonstrated a ~5% efficiency deficit of their battery grid-tie strategy compared to a battery-less grid-tie. That's not alot of loss, considering what you get from it. Mostly it's in, as I understood it, in the battery charging strategy.
DJ

Jim Baber reiterates:
A good reason to NOT use batteries and their associated charge controllers in a grid tie system is that those costs are NOT allowed in the California rebate program. These California rebates are considered to be for on grid system costs only. The rebate program was specifically intended to provide peak period load relief for the on grid Investor Owned Utility systems. I do not know about other states rebates, but I am sure about California's.
I personally do not agree with limiting the rebates to just on grid IOS utility customers, but, I suspect the problem with including public utilities operated by public agencies in the rebate program is the funding of the rebates. This would be a problem because the CPUC has no control over the public agency utility districts rates, or, their rate structures. The state would therefore be unable to obtain the same % piece of the whole rate as is paid by all IOS customers to support the rebates.
Perhaps legislation to include these public utilities should be passed by the legislature so that the rebate program can include them in the program. At that time the rules would have to be modified to include those items like batteries and charge controllers for those systems that are on grid.
1. This would require some additional hardware considerations, because although it would be good to allow a user's batteries to be charged from the grid in off peak load periods. It is quite counter productive to the idea of the user providing peak load augmentation to the grid to allow battery charging during peak load times. 2. One systemic advantage to this concept would be that the customer's battery bank could be used to further supplement the grid in a peak load situation down to an agreed % of battery capacity. 3. This could also then be plugged in to an PHEV automobile, where it would also greatly reduce the cost of fuel, and also reduce the need to import petroleum. The automobile could also serve as a backup for the home's power for use in a disaster, or even a power shortage; down to an agreed % of it's battery capacity. In this case perhaps the additional cost for the plug in capability of the PHEV vehicle could be rebated also. Wouldn't that frost the oil barons. 4. Another positive aspect to the use of local batteries, would be the possibility that a customer's system could then utilize his panels when the grid was down with proper anti islanding equipment (available today). For example: I could use this for my medical support needs.
See I'm not against using batteries on the grid, It just does not quite work the way the rules are now.
Windsun wrote:

The real kicker in battery grid tie systems is the maintenance and cost of the batteries. Over the 20+ year lifespan of the system, the batteries can be the most expensive part, plus the hassle of changing them out every 5-10 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- "DJ" wrote in message


I was at a big grid-tie seminar earlier this week, with reps from surrette (Rolls to you 'mericans ;-), OutBack, EvergreenSolar, and speakers on various topics related to the nuts and bolts of grid-tie systems. OutBack, which incidentally does not recommend batteryless grid-tie, demonstrated a ~5% efficiency deficit of their battery grid-tie strategy compared to a battery-less grid-tie. That's not alot of loss, considering what you get from it. Mostly it's in, as I understood it, in the battery charging strategy.
DJ

-- Jim Baber Email jim@NOJUNKbaber.org 1350 W Mesa Ave. Fresno CA, 93711 (559) 435-9068 (559) 905-2204 (Verizon IN cellphone (to other Verizon IN accounts)) See 10kW grid tied solar system at "http://www.baber.org/solarpanels.jpg" See solar system production data at "http://www.baber.org/solar_status.htm"