Combining Wind & Solar for pumping query

Folks,
I have a small solar pump setup that runs off a single 12v 160W solar panel. It pumps water from an earthern tank (or dam) into a storage tank on the high bank, and the water then gravitates to a trough in the paddock to water livestock. the tank overflows back into the dam when it is full.
I only noticed today that the solar panel is feeding directly to the pump (no regulator), which suggests the pump handles a fairly wide range of voltage. Spec sheet on the back of the panel (BP BP3160S) says it peaks to 35v DC.
It has become obvious that the pump isnt able to do the job with the single panel, and I have the option of adding a second panel to the mounting frame. However, I wondered about how complicated it would be to add a wind turbine instead of a second panel. I can source a 200w (300w peak) wind turbine for a third of the cost of a 160W panel, and the wind the past month would have probably kept the tank filled most nights!
For the sake of simplicity, I would like to have both the solar panel and the wind turbine feeding the pump (actually a RULE 3700 12V ships bilge pump) directly. I'm not interested in a battery, as the pump is capable of making use of the additional power, and I cannot see we will ever produce enough energy for a battery to not run completely flat each night there isnt a lot of wind. Also, I dont really want to the complexity of the system. (not that a battery is going to add that much difficulty, but it becomes yet another point of failure).
Getting back to my question; what needs to be in between the solar panel and the wind turbine and the pump? I envisaged feeding the input from both the solar panel and wind turbine into a regulator, and then outputing to the pump. Does this sound feasible? Havent found such a setup so far. A few months ago, I recall seeing a regulator that inputed from both solar panels and wind turbines separately, and then output the combined power to the battery (or in my case the pump). Of course, I cant find such a setup now I am seriously looking for it... I can find lots of solar regulators, and I can find something to suit a wind turbine, but nothing that will take both and make use of the combined inputs. I would prefer some form of protection (diode??) on each input to protect the power sources from feedback, but this is something I could rig myself.
Is this how it would work? Input wind & solar into a regulator, and get it to produce power for the pump? Is there something else missing to this setup? Am I making this too complicated? Could I simply hook the wind tubine and solar panel into the pump in parallel? Advice about installing a second panel is to hook them up in parrallel, but it worries me about disparate power supplies hooked in parallel.
So many questions; so little time...sigh..
Any ideas or advice appreciated.
Cheers,
Rod....Outback Queensland, Australia

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:48:04 GMT, Rod Out Back wrote:

Folks,
I have a small solar pump setup that runs off a single 12v 160W solar panel. It pumps water from an earthern tank (or dam) into a storage tank on the high bank, and the water then gravitates to a trough in the paddock to water livestock. the tank overflows back into the dam when it is full.
I only noticed today that the solar panel is feeding directly to the pump (no regulator), which suggests the pump handles a fairly wide range of voltage. Spec sheet on the back of the panel (BP BP3160S) says it peaks to 35v DC.
It has become obvious that the pump isnt able to do the job with the single panel, and I have the option of adding a second panel to the mounting frame. However, I wondered about how complicated it would be to add a wind turbine instead of a second panel. I can source a 200w (300w peak) wind turbine for a third of the cost of a 160W panel, and the wind the past month would have probably kept the tank filled most nights!
For the sake of simplicity, I would like to have both the solar panel and the wind turbine feeding the pump (actually a RULE 3700 12V ships bilge pump) directly. I'm not interested in a battery, as the pump is capable of making use of the additional power, and I cannot see we will ever produce enough energy for a battery to not run completely flat each night there isnt a lot of wind. Also, I dont really want to the complexity of the system. (not that a battery is going to add that much difficulty, but it becomes yet another point of failure).
Getting back to my question; what needs to be in between the solar panel and the wind turbine and the pump? I envisaged feeding the input from both the solar panel and wind turbine into a regulator, and then outputing to the pump. Does this sound feasible? Havent found such a setup so far. A few months ago, I recall seeing a regulator that inputed from both solar panels and wind turbines separately, and then output the combined power to the battery (or in my case the pump). Of course, I cant find such a setup now I am seriously looking for it... I can find lots of solar regulators, and I can find something to suit a wind turbine, but nothing that will take both and make use of the combined inputs. I would prefer some form of protection (diode??) on each input to protect the power sources from feedback, but this is something I could rig myself.
Is this how it would work? Input wind & solar into a regulator, and get it to produce power for the pump? Is there something else missing to this setup? Am I making this too complicated? Could I simply hook the wind tubine and solar panel into the pump in parallel? Advice about installing a second panel is to hook them up in parrallel, but it worries me about disparate power supplies hooked in parallel.
So many questions; so little time...sigh..
Any ideas or advice appreciated.
Cheers,
Rod....Outback Queensland, Australia

Greetings Rod from across the ditch (NZ)
I don't know about your pump and whether it handles a wide range of voltage, but it sounds like you need a "maximiser" between your solar panel and pump - I think it might make a huge difference. These are available in Oz - try RPC (Nimbin) or Oatley Electronics or look up ATA. You can get a kit that will handle 20 amps from ATA - but you need a few skills with the soldering iron. They may also have built-up units. Read the Aussie "Renew" magazine for more ideas. This is all assuming there isn't already some sort of inbuilt maximiser in the pump, though I would very much doubt it for a bilge pump.
As for combining the input from both solar and wind - there shouldn't be any problem provided you put a protection diode from each to the common connection point. (usually in the +ve lines).
I suggest you do a search for "solar maximiser" and do a bit of reading - it will help you to understand what they can do.
Cheers mate
Eric.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:03:03 GMT, phoneme@025379386.for.email.address (Eric Sears) wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:48:04 GMT, Rod Out Back someone@IHATESPAM.BIGPOND.COM> wrote:
Folks,
I have a small solar pump setup that runs off a single 12v 160W solar panel. It pumps water from an earthern tank (or dam) into a storage tank on the high bank, and the water then gravitates to a trough in the paddock to water livestock. the tank overflows back into the dam when it is full.
I only noticed today that the solar panel is feeding directly to the pump (no regulator), which suggests the pump handles a fairly wide range of voltage. Spec sheet on the back of the panel (BP BP3160S) says it peaks to 35v DC.
It has become obvious that the pump isnt able to do the job with the single panel, and I have the option of adding a second panel to the mounting frame. However, I wondered about how complicated it would be to add a wind turbine instead of a second panel. I can source a 200w (300w peak) wind turbine for a third of the cost of a 160W panel, and the wind the past month would have probably kept the tank filled most nights!
For the sake of simplicity, I would like to have both the solar panel and the wind turbine feeding the pump (actually a RULE 3700 12V ships bilge pump) directly. I'm not interested in a battery, as the pump is capable of making use of the additional power, and I cannot see we will ever produce enough energy for a battery to not run completely flat each night there isnt a lot of wind. Also, I dont really want to the complexity of the system. (not that a battery is going to add that much difficulty, but it becomes yet another point of failure).
Getting back to my question; what needs to be in between the solar panel and the wind turbine and the pump? I envisaged feeding the input from both the solar panel and wind turbine into a regulator, and then outputing to the pump. Does this sound feasible? Havent found such a setup so far. A few months ago, I recall seeing a regulator that inputed from both solar panels and wind turbines separately, and then output the combined power to the battery (or in my case the pump). Of course, I cant find such a setup now I am seriously looking for it... I can find lots of solar regulators, and I can find something to suit a wind turbine, but nothing that will take both and make use of the combined inputs. I would prefer some form of protection (diode??) on each input to protect the power sources from feedback, but this is something I could rig myself.
Is this how it would work? Input wind & solar into a regulator, and get it to produce power for the pump? Is there something else missing to this setup? Am I making this too complicated? Could I simply hook the wind tubine and solar panel into the pump in parallel? Advice about installing a second panel is to hook them up in parrallel, but it worries me about disparate power supplies hooked in parallel.
So many questions; so little time...sigh..
Any ideas or advice appreciated.
Cheers,
Rod....Outback Queensland, Australia
Greetings Rod from across the ditch (NZ)
I don't know about your pump and whether it handles a wide range of voltage, but it sounds like you need a "maximiser" between your solar panel and pump - I think it might make a huge difference. These are available in Oz - try RPC (Nimbin) or Oatley Electronics or look up ATA. You can get a kit that will handle 20 amps from ATA - but you need a few skills with the soldering iron. They may also have built-up units. Read the Aussie "Renew" magazine for more ideas. This is all assuming there isn't already some sort of inbuilt maximiser in the pump, though I would very much doubt it for a bilge pump.
As for combining the input from both solar and wind - there shouldn't be any problem provided you put a protection diode from each to the common connection point. (usually in the +ve lines).
I suggest you do a search for "solar maximiser" and do a bit of reading - it will help you to understand what they can do.
Cheers mate
Eric.

Eric,
Many thanks for your imput. Apologies for taking so long to reply. I spent some of this morning reading up on optimizers/maximisers, and realise we have such a beast on the big solar pump at our southern bore (8 panels ~150w each). I had wondered why the control box whines in poor sunlight, and my reading solved that mystery! Many thanks. How's the weather/season over there in NZ?? We are trying to get some much-needed rain at present, but the rain-gods seems to be somewhat undecided.
I did look at the maximisers on the RPC site, but wasnt sure if they were the way to go, rather than a regulator. I did track down a solar/wind/regulator, with the option of power intpus from each. It sounded just my cup of tea, and I started ringing around to source one.
I had a long talk with a helpful gent at a marine/solar/wind shop that sells these units, and he clarified a few things for me.
This gent thought that adding a (smallish) wind turbine to boost a solar panel wasnt a problem, aside from a few diodes to protect each power source. He pointed out that adding a battery to the setup will add a lot more complexity in dealing with the power from the wind turbine.
Apparently, wind turbines dont like having their load turned off instantly, and you need to add a few more items to control the event of the wind turbine having fully charged the battery, and the regulator/controller then switching the turbine out of the charging circuit. My circuit diagram was getting more and more complex.
Effectively, his advice was the following (this is a single 160w panel and a 200w wind turbine): 1). If we want a battery in the circuit to extend the pumping time, add a solar regulator (AU$44), a relay, and a second solar panel (AU$1450)- no wind. This can charge the battery as well as running the pump. We do have a second panel, but it is earmarked for another purpose. 2). If we want the wind turbine instead of the second panel, it is far simpler to add the turbine in parallel to the panel, as well as diodes to protect each. If there is sufficient power coming from either/both sources, the pump will run. Even adding a manual disconnect switch for each power source, and a fuse for the pump, the whole setup will cost about $20 more than the cost of the turbine.
I will be interested to see how the setup goes. I really want to experiment with a wind turbine to see what's realistic performance from them in our wind conditions..
Anyway; thanks for the info; I appreciate the input.
Cheers,
Cheers,
Rod.....Out Back

Rod Out Back wrote: I did track down a solar/wind/regulator, with the option of power intpus from each. It sounded just my cup of tea, and I started ringing around to source one.

Hello Rod, what make/model was this solar/wind/regulator as I've been keeping an eye out for one too but have had no luck finding one yet apart from ones that are supplied as part of new turbine kits.
Thanks Brian

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:09:10 +0000, "news.esat.net" wrote:

Rod Out Back wrote: I did track down a solar/wind/regulator, with the option of power intpus from each. It sounded just my cup of tea, and I started ringing around to source one.
Hello Rod, what make/model was this solar/wind/regulator as I've been keeping an eye out for one too but have had no luck finding one yet apart from ones that are supplied as part of new turbine kits.
Thanks Brian

Brian,
I found this unit when browsing a distributors product listing for something else.
Make and model I looked at was on the following web-site:
http://www.amplepower.com/
In the products section, there is a section called 'Charge Distribution and Control', and under this, the link to 'Solar/Wind Controller'.
I think this following link will take you directly to the brief description: http://www.amplepower.com/products/cntlr/index.html. There is a 12v and a 24v model listed.
There is also a bit more info in the instruction manuals that you can access from the main menu. It had a schematic the included the wiring for setting the wind turbine up properly (assuming the turbine doesnt have this circutry). This was the point where I became suspicious that a wind turbine needs a bit more wiring if feeding a battery.
Not sure if this is what you were looking for, but it was the only small unit I could find that catered for both power systems on a small scale setup.
Cheers,
Rod.....Out Back

Rod Out Back wrote:

Make and model I looked at was on the following web-site:
http://www.amplepower.com/
In the products section, there is a section called 'Charge Distribution and Control', and under this, the link to 'Solar/Wind Controller'.
I think this following link will take you directly to the brief description: http://www.amplepower.com/products/cntlr/index.html. There is a 12v and a 24v model listed.
There is also a bit more info in the instruction manuals that you can access from the main menu. It had a schematic the included the wiring for setting the wind turbine up properly (assuming the turbine doesnt have this circutry). This was the point where I became suspicious that a wind turbine needs a bit more wiring if feeding a battery.
Not sure if this is what you were looking for, but it was the only small unit I could find that catered for both power systems on a small scale setup.

Thanks Rod, there's certainly enough reading there to keep me busy for a while.
Brian

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:45:05 GMT, Rod Out Back wrote:

Eric,
Many thanks for your imput. Apologies for taking so long to reply. I spent some of this morning reading up on optimizers/maximisers, and realise we have such a beast on the big solar pump at our southern bore (8 panels ~150w each). I had wondered why the control box whines in poor sunlight, and my reading solved that mystery! Many thanks.
How's the weather/season over there in NZ?? We are trying to get some much-needed rain at present, but the rain-gods seems to be somewhat undecided.
I did look at the maximisers on the RPC site, but wasnt sure if they were the way to go, rather than a regulator. I did track down a solar/wind/regulator, with the option of power intpus from each. It sounded just my cup of tea, and I started ringing around to source one.
I had a long talk with a helpful gent at a marine/solar/wind shop that sells these units, and he clarified a few things for me.
This gent thought that adding a (smallish) wind turbine to boost a solar panel wasnt a problem, aside from a few diodes to protect each power source. He pointed out that adding a battery to the setup will add a lot more complexity in dealing with the power from the wind turbine.
Apparently, wind turbines dont like having their load turned off instantly, and you need to add a few more items to control the event of the wind turbine having fully charged the battery, and the regulator/controller then switching the turbine out of the charging circuit. My circuit diagram was getting more and more complex.
Effectively, his advice was the following (this is a single 160w panel and a 200w wind turbine): 1). If we want a battery in the circuit to extend the pumping time, add a solar regulator (AU$44), a relay, and a second solar panel (AU$1450)- no wind. This can charge the battery as well as running the pump. We do have a second panel, but it is earmarked for another purpose. 2). If we want the wind turbine instead of the second panel, it is far simpler to add the turbine in parallel to the panel, as well as diodes to protect each. If there is sufficient power coming from either/both sources, the pump will run. Even adding a manual disconnect switch for each power source, and a fuse for the pump, the whole setup will cost about $20 more than the cost of the turbine.
I will be interested to see how the setup goes. I really want to experiment with a wind turbine to see what's realistic performance from them in our wind conditions..
Anyway; thanks for the info; I appreciate the input.
Cheers,
Rod.....Out Back

Hi again Rod
I guess part of the problem with me trying to give advice is that I build most of my own electronics. I have built a Pulse Width Modulated controller which is basically just a maximiser - that will handle 20 amps. However, while it can drive a motor or lamp directly, it can't be used to charge a battery as the pulses into the battery would be too large and overheat the fet's (transistors) - you need to add inductors etc. I understand why you want to do without a battery if possible (they are always wearing out!), but they do smooth variability of input from solar and wind. You would not necessarily need a large battery, provided it was set up to cut out whenever the voltage reached a certain level. I'm presuming you have fairly steady winds (they tend to gust a lot in mountain areas of NZ).
Anyway, here's another idea:
Use a battery such as a largish truck battery (deep cycle would be better but in this application the idea is to not greatly discharge it much all). Feed in whatever sources you want (solar, wind etc), and use a dump load type of regulator. Set the switching to say 14volts dump on and 12.8v dump off (that's a bit of a guess but its probably close enough). You now make the pump the dump load, so that it pumps whenever the battery is full. The battery might get a bit more than it needs when the wind is blowing hard - so you might either want to add to the dump load, or check the electrolye level every so often.
Another alternative would be to feed all the power (diode isolated as usual) into the battery, and feed the pump via a LOW voltage cutout (again circuits are available on the web). This might mean that the pump stops pumping whenever the battery gets down to say 12.8 volts. You might still want some sort of regulator so that the battery voltage does not get too high.
One problem with adding a wind turbine is that unlike a solar panel, it can generate huge amounts of power when the wind gets going! They also generally must not have their load disconnected. This makes it harder to control if you don't have a battery. Solar panels are basically hassle-free and even if they are disconnected by a regulator, it does no harm (so I would be going for option 1 above). My query about the second bit of advice you were given is whether running the wind turbine without a battery might cause the voltage to rise too high (what will control the voltage in a high wind?), and burn out your pump. I'm not sure how many small 12v wind turbines have a built-in regulator that is designed to work without a battery.
RE the weather - we WERE having a very dry spell here (and its still dry down near our hydro lakes in Southland), but we had 50+mm in the last few days which has eased water restrictions in Nelson city. But I think the east coast of the South Island will stay dry for a bit longer yet. Hope you get some moisture soon.
All best wishes
Eric.

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