Battery Charging With Outback System

Hi.
I have an Outback 2-inverter (VFX3648) system connected in what I think they call the Outback Series configuration along with the autotransformer (X240) and charge controller (MX60). I don't have any solar panels yet. I am charging a bank of twenty-four 225 Ah 6 volt batteries configured for 48 volts. The problem I am having is that if I want to run a big load (well pump, washing machine etc.) I need to manually turn off battery charging or the inverters will drop the AC-In connection and my well pump, which has a bunch of protection circuits, kept turning off and on (I stopped it rather quickly). My cheap Chinese 5500 watt generator got toasted when I had the charging rates set to about 19 aac on each port: I turned it off because it sounded like it was struggling and I failed to disconnect it first. It flipped both breakers when I shut it down and apparently fried the diodes. I am now using my old Honda-powered/Italian 5000 watt genset but I reduced the charge rate to 15 aac on each port. The "meter" shows about 2300 watts but it sure seems like a lot more than that. I think I need a big, fat ammeter connected to the batteries because I cannot determine anything for certain with the info from the Outback system. Also, if I have a small generator (2000 watts) connected the output voltage drops quite a bit below what the generator would normally produce if not connected to the inverters. Consequently there is very little power available when the generator is on and such things as a microwave oven won't really work at all and clocks and fans run slow. With whatever generator is connected I am restricted to the output of the generator minus whatever is getting sucked up by the Outback system. So, my question is:
Why is it better to use transfer switches to switch to generator power instead of simply using one of the battery chargers to charge the batteries and continue running everything from the inverters? I would have 7200 watts available, the wave output would (should) be a consistant, good quality sine wave, my appliances would all run normally, and my clocks would keep the right time. I would not have to go push a bunch of buttons every time I want to run a compressor or well pump etc.
If I decide it would be better to charge the batteries directly and keep the inverters online then what would be the best way to achieve this? It seems that I already have three 3-stage chargers including the MX60 charge controller. Anyone know if there is a way to bypass the transfer switches? Also, since the MX60 can handle up to 141 VDC input I was thinking it might not be too difficult to build a power supply by running the AC output from a generator through a full-wave bridge rectifier along with a smoothing capacitor but as yet I don't know if the MX60 can be set to a lower charging rate (they gave me a LOT of stuff to read) and I don't want to overload any generators or ruin the charge controller. They discuss solar panels as the *only* DC input for the controller but as long as the DC is faily pure why would it care? Or should I buy another 48 volt battery charger? Any recommendations?
BTW I tried emailing Outback twice and got no response and I'm waiting to be blessed with access to their forums. They don't seem to have a toll-free number. And yet I've read many times that their customer support is far superior to Trace/Xantrex. What's the best way to get ahold of them?
Thanks.

On Fri, 18 May 2007 09:13:33 -0700, "Ulysses" wrote:

Hi.
I have an Outback 2-inverter (VFX3648) system connected in what I think they call the Outback Series configuration along with the autotransformer (X240) and charge controller (MX60). I don't have any solar panels yet. I am charging a bank of twenty-four 225 Ah 6 volt batteries configured for 48 volts. The problem I am having is that if I want to run a big load (well pump, washing machine etc.) I need to manually turn off battery charging or the inverters will drop the AC-In connection and my well pump, which has a bunch of protection circuits, kept turning off and on (I stopped it rather quickly).

Most pump protection devices in that size range have a calibration routine that may need to be reset to match your setup. They have to be pretty sensitive in order to catch the current drop when the pump runs dry, so the calibration routine sometimes has to be repeated to get it right. For example - if the well is such that it will draw down, then the calibration is best done when the water level is low. Also, ideally you'd have the pump on a timer so that it comes on when it's best for the system, as opposed to just letting it cycle whenever the tank level drops.

My cheap Chinese 5500 watt generator got toasted when I had the charging rates set to about 19 aac on each port: I turned it off because it sounded like it was struggling and I failed to disconnect it first. It flipped both breakers when I shut it down and apparently fried the diodes. I am now using my old Honda-powered/Italian 5000 watt genset but I reduced the charge rate to 15 aac on each port. The "meter" shows about 2300 watts but it sure seems like a lot more than that. I think I need a big, fat ammeter connected to the batteries because I cannot determine anything for certain with the info from the Outback system.

You should add a proper battery monitor on that setup. If you have the Outback panel the shunt is probably already in there. I've tried both the Emeter (Link 10 now) and the TriMetric. I prefer the Emeter by quite a bit.

Also, if I have a small generator (2000 watts) connected the output voltage drops quite a bit below what the generator would normally produce if not connected to the inverters.

Sounds like it might be overloaded. You could set inverter battery charging to zero and see if that changes things.

Consequently there is very little power available when the generator is on and such things as a microwave oven won't really work at all and clocks and fans run slow. With whatever generator is connected I am restricted to the output of the generator minus whatever is getting sucked up by the Outback system. So, my question is:
Why is it better to use transfer switches to switch to generator power instead of simply using one of the battery chargers to charge the batteries and continue running everything from the inverters?

Once the inverters sync to the generator, they pass the generator power straight through to the loads, and use whatever's left over (if any) to charge the batteries. As you add loads, the charger must dial back to compensate. Meanwhile the loads are seeing whatever surges and fluctuations are caused by any lag in the inverter's sensing and generator's governor. Partly because of that, I switched to DC charging so that the inverters would always be in invert mode. I lost the nice charge control functionality, but I never finish charge with a generator anyway so the only control I need is a time limit.

I would have 7200 watts available, the wave output would (should) be a consistant, good quality sine wave, my appliances would all run normally, and my clocks would keep the right time. I would not have to go push a bunch of buttons every time I want to run a compressor or well pump etc.
If I decide it would be better to charge the batteries directly and keep the inverters online then what would be the best way to achieve this? It seems that I already have three 3-stage chargers including the MX60 charge controller.

You should probably get on the phone with Outback and do whatever fine tuning they suggest before trying to reinvent the wheel. It would be nice to have either the Emeter before that, or at least an AC-DC clamp meter on hand. A Fluke 336A would be nice. $275 delivered http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/currentclamps/330series.htm. There are many cheaper models as well. I have a 337, and have made good use of the DC current and inrush capture features.

Anyone know if there is a way to bypass the transfer switches? Also, since the MX60 can handle up to 141 VDC input I was thinking it might not be too difficult to build a power supply by running the AC output from a generator through a full-wave bridge rectifier along with a smoothing capacitor but as yet I don't know if the MX60 can be set to a lower charging rate (they gave me a LOT of stuff to read) and I don't want to overload any generators or ruin the charge controller. They discuss solar panels as the *only* DC input for the controller but as long as the DC is faily pure why would it care? Or should I buy another 48 volt battery charger? Any recommendations?
BTW I tried emailing Outback twice and got no response and I'm waiting to be blessed with access to their forums. They don't seem to have a toll-free number. And yet I've read many times that their customer support is far superior to Trace/Xantrex. What's the best way to get ahold of them?

A friend with a similar issue (washing machine was causing generator breaker to trip) told me she got Outback on the phone, and was told to remove the limit on the generator input. I couldn't tell from the story if she may have misunderstood.
Have you tried limiting the max charging rate? I would think you'd want to set the generator input limit to somewhat less than what starts to bog the generator down, and then set the charging rate to say, 1500W below that.
Wayne

"wmbjk" wrote in message

On Fri, 18 May 2007 09:13:33 -0700, "Ulysses" therealulysses@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi.
I have an Outback 2-inverter (VFX3648) system connected in what I think they call the Outback Series configuration along with the autotransformer (X240) and charge controller (MX60). I don't have any solar panels yet. I am charging a bank of twenty-four 225 Ah 6 volt batteries configured for 48 volts. The problem I am having is that if I want to run a big load (well pump, washing machine etc.) I need to manually turn off battery charging or the inverters will drop the AC-In connection and my well pump, which has a bunch of protection circuits, kept turning off and on (I stopped it rather quickly).
Most pump protection devices in that size range have a calibration routine that may need to be reset to match your setup. They have to be pretty sensitive in order to catch the current drop when the pump runs dry, so the calibration routine sometimes has to be repeated to get it right. For example - if the well is such that it will draw down, then the calibration is best done when the water level is low. Also, ideally you'd have the pump on a timer so that it comes on when it's best for the system, as opposed to just letting it cycle whenever the tank level drops.
My cheap Chinese 5500 watt generator got toasted when I had the charging rates set to about 19 aac on each port: I turned it off because it sounded like it was struggling and I failed to disconnect it first. It flipped both breakers when I shut it down and apparently fried the diodes. I am now using my old Honda-powered/Italian 5000 watt genset but I reduced the charge rate to 15 aac on each port. The "meter" shows about 2300 watts but it sure seems like a lot more than that. I think I need a big, fat ammeter connected to the batteries because I cannot determine anything for certain with the info from the Outback system.
You should add a proper battery monitor on that setup. If you have the Outback panel the shunt is probably already in there. I've tried both the Emeter (Link 10 now) and the TriMetric. I prefer the Emeter by quite a bit.
Also, if I have a small generator (2000 watts) connected the output voltage drops quite a bit below what the generator would normally produce if not connected to the inverters.
Sounds like it might be overloaded. You could set inverter battery charging to zero and see if that changes things.
Consequently there is very little power available when the generator is on and such things as a microwave oven won't really work at all and clocks and fans run slow. With whatever generator is connected I am restricted to the output of the generator minus whatever is getting sucked up by the Outback system. So, my question is:
Why is it better to use transfer switches to switch to generator power instead of simply using one of the battery chargers to charge the batteries and continue running everything from the inverters?
Once the inverters sync to the generator, they pass the generator power straight through to the loads, and use whatever's left over (if any) to charge the batteries. As you add loads, the charger must dial back to compensate. Meanwhile the loads are seeing whatever surges and fluctuations are caused by any lag in the inverter's sensing and generator's governor. Partly because of that, I switched to DC charging so that the inverters would always be in invert mode. I lost the nice charge control functionality, but I never finish charge with a generator anyway so the only control I need is a time limit.
I would have 7200 watts available, the wave output would (should) be a consistant, good quality sine wave, my appliances would all run normally, and my clocks would keep the right time. I would not have to go push a bunch of buttons every time I want to run a compressor or well pump etc.
If I decide it would be better to charge the batteries directly and keep the inverters online then what would be the best way to achieve this? It seems that I already have three 3-stage chargers including the MX60 charge controller.
You should probably get on the phone with Outback and do whatever fine tuning they suggest before trying to reinvent the wheel. It would be nice to have either the Emeter before that, or at least an AC-DC clamp meter on hand. A Fluke 336A would be nice. $275 delivered http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/currentclamps/330series.htm. There are many cheaper models as well. I have a 337, and have made good use of the DC current and inrush capture features.
Anyone know if there is a way to bypass the transfer switches? Also, since the MX60 can handle up to 141 VDC input I was thinking it might not be too difficult to build a power supply by running the AC output from a generator through a full-wave bridge rectifier along with a smoothing capacitor but as yet I don't know if the MX60 can be set to a lower charging rate (they gave me a LOT of stuff to read) and I don't want to overload any generators or ruin the charge controller. They discuss solar panels as the *only* DC input for the controller but as long as the DC is faily pure why would it care? Or should I buy another 48 volt battery charger? Any recommendations?
BTW I tried emailing Outback twice and got no response and I'm waiting to be blessed with access to their forums. They don't seem to have a toll-free number. And yet I've read many times that their customer support is far superior to Trace/Xantrex. What's the best way to get ahold of them?
A friend with a similar issue (washing machine was causing generator breaker to trip) told me she got Outback on the phone, and was told to remove the limit on the generator input. I couldn't tell from the story if she may have misunderstood.
Have you tried limiting the max charging rate? I would think you'd want to set the generator input limit to somewhat less than what starts to bog the generator down, and then set the charging rate to say, 1500W below that.
Wayne

My lengthly response seems to have vanished into cyberspace. I'll be back.

On May 18, 2:48 pm, wmbjk wrote:

The "meter" shows about 2300 watts but it sure seems like a lot more than that. I think I need a big, fat ammeter connected to the batteries because I cannot determine anything for certain with the info from the Outback system.
You should add a proper battery monitor on that setup. If you have the Outback panel the shunt is probably already in there. I've tried both the Emeter (Link 10 now) and the TriMetric. I prefer the Emeter by quite a bit.

Might even want to try the TM-500; there's a few features in there that I like, over the Link10.

Why is it better to use transfer switches to switch to generator power instead of simply using one of the battery chargers to charge the batteries and continue running everything from the inverters?

It's not. You just don't have your inverter programmed optimally.

Anyone know if there is a way to bypass the transfer switches? Also, since the MX60 can handle up to 141 VDC input I was thinking it might not be too difficult to build a power supply by running the AC output from a generator through a full-wave bridge rectifier along with a smoothing capacitor but as yet I don't know if the MX60 can be set to a lower charging rate (they gave me a LOT of stuff to read) and I don't want to overload any generators or ruin the charge controller. They discuss solar panels as the *only* DC input for the controller but as long as the DC is faily pure why would it care? Or should I buy another 48 volt battery charger? Any recommendations?

Don't plug anything but PV into an MX-60; it'd likely damage the controller or the source unit. They're nice rigs, but not that rugged when you start coloring outside the lines...

BTW I tried emailing Outback twice and got no response and I'm waiting to be blessed with access to their forums. They don't seem to have a toll-free number. And yet I've read many times that their customer support is far superior to Trace/Xantrex. What's the best way to get ahold of them?

As you can imagine, it's a busy time of the year for those of us in this business. But your question finally made it into the forums, and there are a bunch of answers there now (some even from me).

A friend with a similar issue (washing machine was causing generator breaker to trip) told me she got Outback on the phone, and was told to remove the limit on the generator input. I couldn't tell from the story if she may have misunderstood.

It's partial, yeah. Depends on what you want the inverter to do if it encounters problems. On a big genset (say, 30a AC 120v), bumping up the gen input limit is good. On a small genset, you have to bump the AC IN *down* to near the charging rate, so it turns the charger off if there's a load.
DJ

On Wed, 23 May 2007 16:40:00 +0000 (UTC), jnh@VictorTangoEleven.net.invalid (Jordan Hazen) wrote:

In article , Ulysses wrote: [...] Also, since the MX60 can handle up to 141 VDC input I was thinking it might not be too difficult to build a power supply by running the AC output from a generator through a full-wave bridge rectifier along with a smoothing capacitor but as yet I don't know if the MX60 can be set to a lower charging rate (they gave me a LOT of stuff to read) and I don't want to overload any generators or ruin the charge controller. They discuss solar panels as the *only* DC input for the controller but as long as the DC is faily pure why would it care?
Remember that a 120VAC RMS source peaks at 170V (120 * sqrt(2)) on each half cycle, so unless you can turn your generator's voltage down quite a bit, doing this would definitely exceed the MX-60's limits, and probably damage it.
Also, if the generator's voltage regulator has a slow response time (common on small units), the MX-60's MPPT/PWM behavior could interact with it in such as way as to cause voltage spikes even above 170V, further increasing the risk of damage.

One thing that has been done using the MX60 is to use a 2:1 step down transformer (isolated) and then the bridge rectifier. This will bring down that peak voltage to more like 90 volts which is much better. Then, turn down the MX60s current limt at least to start with to around 30 Amps instead of the 60 Amps default.
After you find that it works OK, and doesn't overshoot a lot or bog down your generator, which can happen, then you can start cranking up the current limit on the MX.
boB

"wmbjk" wrote in message

On Fri, 18 May 2007 09:13:33 -0700, "Ulysses" therealulysses@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi.
I have an Outback 2-inverter (VFX3648) system connected in what I think they call the Outback Series configuration along with the autotransformer (X240) and charge controller (MX60). I don't have any solar panels yet. I am charging a bank of twenty-four 225 Ah 6 volt batteries configured for 48 volts. The problem I am having is that if I want to run a big load (well pump, washing machine etc.) I need to manually turn off battery charging or the inverters will drop the AC-In connection and my well pump, which has a bunch of protection circuits, kept turning off and on (I stopped it rather quickly).
Most pump protection devices in that size range have a calibration routine that may need to be reset to match your setup. They have to be pretty sensitive in order to catch the current drop when the pump runs dry, so the calibration routine sometimes has to be repeated to get it right. For example - if the well is such that it will draw down, then the calibration is best done when the water level is low. Also, ideally you'd have the pump on a timer so that it comes on when it's best for the system, as opposed to just letting it cycle whenever the tank level drops.
My cheap Chinese 5500 watt generator got toasted when I had the charging rates set to about 19 aac on each port: I turned it off because it sounded like it was struggling and I failed to disconnect it first. It flipped both breakers when I shut it down and apparently fried the diodes. I am now using my old Honda-powered/Italian 5000 watt genset but I reduced the charge rate to 15 aac on each port. The "meter" shows about 2300 watts but it sure seems like a lot more than that. I think I need a big, fat ammeter connected to the batteries because I cannot determine anything for certain with the info from the Outback system.
You should add a proper battery monitor on that setup. If you have the Outback panel the shunt is probably already in there. I've tried both the Emeter (Link 10 now) and the TriMetric. I prefer the Emeter by quite a bit.

I have a new TriMetric in the box but it says it needs a shunt. For all they money they didn't send me a shunt?
What in particular do you like better about the Emeter?

Also, if I have a small generator (2000 watts) connected the output voltage drops quite a bit below what the generator would normally produce if not connected to the inverters.
Sounds like it might be overloaded. You could set inverter battery charging to zero and see if that changes things.

Well, it *says* it's charging at about 1000 watts on one port but with my 5000 watt genny it *says* 2.2-2.4 kW but I'm sure the genny is running at near full capacity. I just don't have any way to prove it.
Meanwhile I've made my old eu2000 with the dead engine into a belt-drive generator head so I should be finding out soon if the high quality output from the eu2000 improves things.
is very little power available when the generator is on

and such things as a microwave oven won't really work at all and clocks and fans run slow. With whatever generator is connected I am restricted to the output of the generator minus whatever is getting sucked up by the Outback system. So, my question is:
Why is it better to use transfer switches to switch to generator power instead of simply using one of the battery chargers to charge the batteries and continue running everything from the inverters?
Once the inverters sync to the generator, they pass the generator power straight through to the loads, and use whatever's left over (if any) to charge the batteries. As you add loads, the charger must dial back to compensate. Meanwhile the loads are seeing whatever surges and fluctuations are caused by any lag in the inverter's sensing and generator's governor. Partly because of that, I switched to DC charging so that the inverters would always be in invert mode. I lost the nice charge control functionality, but I never finish charge with a generator anyway so the only control I need is a time limit.

How are you charging with DC?

I would have 7200 watts available, the wave output would (should) be a consistant, good quality sine wave, my appliances would all run normally, and my clocks would keep the right time. I would not have to go push a bunch of buttons every time I want to run a compressor or well pump etc.
If I decide it would be better to charge the batteries directly and keep the inverters online then what would be the best way to achieve this? It seems that I already have three 3-stage chargers including the MX60 charge controller.
You should probably get on the phone with Outback and do whatever fine tuning they suggest before trying to reinvent the wheel. It would be nice to have either the Emeter before that, or at least an AC-DC clamp meter on hand. A Fluke 336A would be nice. $275 delivered http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/currentclamps/330series.htm. There are many cheaper models as well. I have a 337, and have made good use of the DC current and inrush capture features.
Anyone know if there is a way to bypass the transfer switches? Also, since the MX60 can handle up to 141 VDC input I was thinking it might not be too difficult to build a power supply by running the AC output from a generator through a full-wave bridge rectifier along with a smoothing capacitor but as yet I don't know if the MX60 can be set to a lower charging rate (they gave me a LOT of stuff to read) and I don't want to overload any generators or ruin the charge controller. They discuss solar panels as the *only* DC input for the controller but as long as the DC is faily pure why would it care? Or should I buy another 48 volt battery charger? Any recommendations?
BTW I tried emailing Outback twice and got no response and I'm waiting to be blessed with access to their forums. They don't seem to have a toll-free number. And yet I've read many times that their customer support is far superior to Trace/Xantrex. What's the best way to get ahold of them?
A friend with a similar issue (washing machine was causing generator breaker to trip) told me she got Outback on the phone, and was told to remove the limit on the generator input. I couldn't tell from the story if she may have misunderstood.
Have you tried limiting the max charging rate? I would think you'd want to set the generator input limit to somewhat less than what starts to bog the generator down, and then set the charging rate to say, 1500W below that.
Wayne

It's way below what the generator should be able to handle and the genny sounds well-loaded.

On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:11:41 -0700, "Ulysses" wrote:

I have a new TriMetric in the box but it says it needs a shunt. For all they money they didn't send me a shunt?

If you have the PS2DC breaker panel it has a shunt inside. If not, then you need the shunt, *and* a 48V adapter http://www.bogartengineering.com/48VadaptInstruct-VA.pdf. Same thing with the Emeter. It mostly ships as a meter-shunt package but still requires a "prescaler" for 48V.

What in particular do you like better about the Emeter?

It's been a while, I can't remember most of it. The main differences are that the TM doesn't have a graphic display and has 3 main displays instead of the Emeter's 4. Fewer customization options as well as I recall. They both do the job though and I'm sure that some would prefer the TM. It's made to fit in standard double gang box for instance while the Emeter was made to snap into a dashboard hole.

How are you charging with DC?

I built a custom generator - electric-start lawn tractor type engine running at about 2/3 normal rpm with a small throttle opening. Belt drives a converted vehicle alternator with an external rectifier and field controller. Many convenience features including timers to delay field cut-in during warm up, and to delay engine stop for an unloaded cool down period.
Your Outback inverters are reputed to be more efficient at charging than the SWs and should be more efficient than my DC generator as well. I don't need much generator backup so convenience is more important to me than efficiency.
Wayne

"wmbjk" wrote in message

On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:11:41 -0700, "Ulysses" therealulysses@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have a new TriMetric in the box but it says it needs a shunt. For all they money they didn't send me a shunt?
If you have the PS2DC breaker panel it has a shunt inside. If not, then you need the shunt, *and* a 48V adapter http://www.bogartengineering.com/48VadaptInstruct-VA.pdf. Same thing with the Emeter. It mostly ships as a meter-shunt package but still requires a "prescaler" for 48V.

I found the shunt. Now that I've read this I'm pretty sure it's the right shunt. The instructions for the TriMetric call for cutting and splicing wires but the meter came with a whatchamacallit cable (like network cables) so it seems like it should just plug in to some jacks somewhere...

What in particular do you like better about the Emeter?
It's been a while, I can't remember most of it. The main differences are that the TM doesn't have a graphic display and has 3 main displays instead of the Emeter's 4. Fewer customization options as well as I recall. They both do the job though and I'm sure that some would prefer the TM. It's made to fit in standard double gang box for instance while the Emeter was made to snap into a dashboard hole.
How are you charging with DC?
I built a custom generator - electric-start lawn tractor type engine running at about 2/3 normal rpm with a small throttle opening. Belt drives a converted vehicle alternator with an external rectifier and field controller. Many convenience features including timers to delay field cut-in during warm up, and to delay engine stop for an unloaded cool down period.
Your Outback inverters are reputed to be more efficient at charging than the SWs and should be more efficient than my DC generator as well. I don't need much generator backup so convenience is more important to me than efficiency.

I just took apart my 12 volt alternator/charger so I could feed the parts to my eu2000 but it sounds very similar. I like the timer idea: easier than waiting for the engine to warm up and flip a switch. If you can do your 3 stage charging with another source then I take it you are using the alternator for bulk charging.

Wayne