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This story appeard today in the International Herald Tribune: -
LISBON, Portugal: The world's largest solar power plant was inaugurated Wednesday in Portugal.(see link below) <quote> "The 11-megawatt €61 million (US$78.5 million) plant, a joint project of U.S energy companies GE Energy Financial Services, PowerLight Corporation, and Portuguese renewable energy company Catavento, spreads across a 60-hectare (150-acre) hillside in Serpa, 200 kilometers (124 miles) southeast of Lisbon Southern Portugal, one of the sunniest places in Europe, has as much as 3,300 hours of sunlight a year. The new plant will produce enough power to supply 8,000 homes and will also prevent the emission of 30,000 tons of greenhouse gases a year when compared to fossil fuels." <endquote>
This is a rapid brainstorm and I haven't double-checked the calculations, but using the data supplied it would seem that: -
* This solar power station can produce electricity for 8,000 homes on 150 acres. * So one square mile would produce electricity for about 34,000 homes at a cost of $334 million * Population of Portugal July 2006 estimate 10,605,870 * Assuming 4 people per home = 2,651,467.5 homes * This means you could produce all the domestic electricity in Portugal on roughly 78 square miles (say 8*10 miles) at a cost of $ 26,052, million (not including economies of scale and neglecting displaced economic activities and compensation to farmers) * Portugal's GDP = $183,619 million = 14.2% of Portugal's annual GDP
Spread out over 10 years, that would be achievable at roughly 1.4% of annual GDP Saving in Greenhouse gases = roughly 10 million tons
There's plenty of unproductive land in Southern Spain, North Africa and the South Western USA/Mexico
Why not build more of these?
link to main article: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...

Destroy this argument..

LISBON, Portugal: The world's largest solar power plant was inaugurated Wednesday in Portugal.(see link below) <snip> This is a rapid brainstorm and I haven't double-checked the calculations, but using the data supplied it would seem that: -
* This solar power station can produce electricity for 8,000 homes on 150 acres. * So one square mile would produce electricity for about 34,000 homes at a cost of $334 million * Population of Portugal July 2006 estimate 10,605,870 * Assuming 4 people per home = 2,651,467.5 homes * This means you could produce all the domestic electricity in Portugal on roughly 78 square miles (say 8*10 miles) at a cost of $ 26,052, million (not including economies of scale and neglecting displaced economic activities and compensation to farmers) * Portugal's GDP = $183,619 million = 14.2% of Portugal's annual GDP
Spread out over 10 years, that would be achievable at roughly 1.4% of annual GDP Saving in Greenhouse gases = roughly 10 million tons
There's plenty of unproductive land in Southern Spain, North Africa and the South Western USA/Mexico
Why not build more of these?
My main questions would be:
1) how much energy is spent and 'greenhouse gasses' are released in the building of all the equipment used. 2) what kind of enviro damage will be done by it. The law of unintended consequences has a nasty way of biting you in the rear.

Destroy this argument..

On 28 Mar, 19:49, "no spam" wrote:

My main questions would be:
1) how much energy is spent and 'greenhouse gasses' are released in the building of all the equipment used. 2) what kind of enviro damage will be done by it. The law of unintended consequences has a nasty way of biting you in the rear.


1) Depends on what the working lifetime of the plant would be. The longer it is, the lower the carbon footprint
2) As long as you're using waste-land or desert, I would have thought not much. But scaling up to 100 million people, would require a lot of desert. Say 40*20 miles. That would cover the households in the Western United States and more. Of course, the sun doesn't always shine!

Destroy this argument..

wrote in message

On 28 Mar, 19:49, "no spam" wrote:
My main questions would be:
1) how much energy is spent and 'greenhouse gasses' are released in the building of all the equipment used. 2) what kind of enviro damage will be done by it. The law of unintended consequences has a nasty way of biting you in the rear.
1) Depends on what the working lifetime of the plant would be. The longer it is, the lower the carbon footprint
2) As long as you're using waste-land or desert, I would have thought not much. But scaling up to 100 million people, would require a lot of desert. Say 40*20 miles. That would cover the households in the Western United States and more. Of course, the sun doesn't always shine! Might be time for a beta voltaic.....operating parallel to it.



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Destroy this argument..

On Mar 29, 4:30 am, xnich...@hotmail.com wrote:

This story appeard today in the International Herald Tribune: -
LISBON, Portugal: The world's largest solar power plant was inaugurated Wednesday in Portugal.(see link below) quote> "The 11-megawatt €61 million (US$78.5 million) plant, a joint project of U.S energy companies GE Energy Financial Services, PowerLight Corporation, and Portuguese renewable energy company Catavento, spreads across a 60-hectare (150-acre) hillside in Serpa, 200 kilometers (124 miles) southeast of Lisbon Southern Portugal, one of the sunniest places in Europe, has as much as 3,300 hours of sunlight a year. The new plant will produce enough power to supply 8,000 homes and will also prevent the emission of 30,000 tons of greenhouse gases a year when compared to fossil fuels." <endquote
This is a rapid brainstorm and I haven't double-checked the calculations, but using the data supplied it would seem that: -
* This solar power station can produce electricity for 8,000 homes on 150 acres. * So one square mile would produce electricity for about 34,000 homes at a cost of $334 million * Population of Portugal July 2006 estimate 10,605,870 * Assuming 4 people per home = 2,651,467.5 homes * This means you could produce all the domestic electricity in Portugal on roughly 78 square miles (say 8*10 miles) at a cost of $ 26,052, million (not including economies of scale and neglecting displaced economic activities and compensation to farmers) * Portugal's GDP = $183,619 million = 14.2% of Portugal's annual GDP
Spread out over 10 years, that would be achievable at roughly 1.4% of annual GDP Saving in Greenhouse gases = roughly 10 million tons
There's plenty of unproductive land in Southern Spain, North Africa and the South Western USA/Mexico
Why not build more of these?
link to main article:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...

I suppose you'd have to look at the initial capital and recurrent cost to work out the total cost over the effective lifetime of the plant, and the useable energy that it could generate to work out cost benefit. There's also the question of how they get all that silica.
Yes, the sun doesn't always shine, but these days there are ways of "storing" the energy using pumped storage or heated water stored below ground. Luckily, peak load tends to be during the day and especially during the summer months.
Fran

Destroy this argument..

"Arnold Walker" wrote in message

xnichols@hotmail.com> wrote in message On 28 Mar, 19:49, "no spam" wrote:
My main questions would be:
1) how much energy is spent and 'greenhouse gasses' are released in the building of all the equipment used. 2) what kind of enviro damage will be done by it. The law of unintended consequences has a nasty way of biting you in the rear.
1) Depends on what the working lifetime of the plant would be. The longer it is, the lower the carbon footprint
2) As long as you're using waste-land or desert, I would have thought not much. But scaling up to 100 million people, would require a lot of desert. Say 40*20 miles. That would cover the households in the Western United States and more. Of course, the sun doesn't always shine! Might be time for a beta voltaic.....operating parallel to it. Don't think you need anywhere near 11MW of nuke battery to

move the PV's into a 24/7 operation. I believe the power to wieght number is 24watts per KG of battery. With most of that wieght being silicon more so than heavy water. 100,000 pounds of battery....maybe on 1 acre delivering 2MW. And with France next door a ready suppy of tritium for the batteries. Batteries would have a service life of 20 to 50 years...... Of course ,they could also call Houston for a ready made unit. With water water already expoxed it. A lot safer than the Russian cesium reactors used in some rural substations.

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Destroy this argument..

On 28 Mar, 22:08, "Fran" wrote:

Why not build more of these?
link to main article:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...
There's also the question of how they get all that silica.

Sand?

Yes, the sun doesn't always shine, but these days there are ways of "storing" the energy using pumped storage or heated water stored below ground. Luckily, peak load tends to be during the day and especially during the summer months.

Yes, in the U.S. South West and in Australia. Plus no one's arguing that its the only solution for producing energy.

Destroy this argument..

On 28 Mar, 22:21, "Arnold Walker" wrote:

"Arnold Walker" wrote in message
@hotmail.com> wrote in message On 28 Mar, 19:49, "no spam" wrote:
My main questions would be:
1) how much energy is spent and 'greenhouse gasses' are released in the building of all the equipment used. 2) what kind of enviro damage will be done by it. The law of unintended consequences has a nasty way of biting you in the rear.
1) Depends on what the working lifetime of the plant would be. The longer it is, the lower the carbon footprint
2) As long as you're using waste-land or desert, I would have thought not much. But scaling up to 100 million people, would require a lot of desert. Say 40*20 miles. That would cover the households in the Western United States and more. Of course, the sun doesn't always shine! Might be time for a beta voltaic.....operating parallel to it.
Don't think you need anywhere near 11MW of nuke battery to move the PV's into a 24/7 operation. I believe the power to wieght number is 24watts per KG of battery. With most of that wieght being silicon more so than heavy water. 100,000 pounds of battery....maybe on 1 acre delivering 2MW. And with France next door a ready suppy of tritium for the batteries. Batteries would have a service life of 20 to 50 years...... Of course ,they could also call Houston for a ready made unit. With water water already expoxed it. A lot safer than the Russian cesium reactors used in some rural substations.
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- Show quoted text -

An alternative would be to go for major offshore wind farms of the U.S Eastern seaboard and built 10 storage resevoirs in the Appalachians. That would cover the other side of the country.
Lake Superior also has one of the best off-shore wind resources in the continental USA. So build major offshore wind farms there and bring them ashore in Upper Michigan, say near the Keewenaw peninsula?

Destroy this argument..

Fran wrote:

On Mar 29, 4:30 am, xnich...@hotmail.com wrote: This story appeard today in the International Herald Tribune: -
LISBON, Portugal: The world's largest solar power plant was inaugurated Wednesday in Portugal.(see link below) quote> "The 11-megawatt €61 million (US$78.5 million) plant, a joint project of U.S energy companies GE Energy Financial Services, PowerLight Corporation, and Portuguese renewable energy company Catavento, spreads across a 60-hectare (150-acre) hillside in Serpa, 200 kilometers (124 miles) southeast of Lisbon Southern Portugal, one of the sunniest places in Europe, has as much as 3,300 hours of sunlight a year. The new plant will produce enough power to supply 8,000 homes and will also prevent the emission of 30,000 tons of greenhouse gases a year when compared to fossil fuels." <endquote
This is a rapid brainstorm and I haven't double-checked the calculations, but using the data supplied it would seem that: -
* This solar power station can produce electricity for 8,000 homes on 150 acres. * So one square mile would produce electricity for about 34,000 homes at a cost of $334 million * Population of Portugal July 2006 estimate 10,605,870 * Assuming 4 people per home = 2,651,467.5 homes * This means you could produce all the domestic electricity in Portugal on roughly 78 square miles (say 8*10 miles) at a cost of $ 26,052, million (not including economies of scale and neglecting displaced economic activities and compensation to farmers) * Portugal's GDP = $183,619 million = 14.2% of Portugal's annual GDP
Spread out over 10 years, that would be achievable at roughly 1.4% of annual GDP Saving in Greenhouse gases = roughly 10 million tons
There's plenty of unproductive land in Southern Spain, North Africa and the South Western USA/Mexico
Why not build more of these?
link to main article:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...
I suppose you'd have to look at the initial capital and recurrent cost to work out the total cost over the effective lifetime of the plant, and the useable energy that it could generate to work out cost benefit. There's also the question of how they get all that silica.
Yes, the sun doesn't always shine, but these days there are ways of "storing" the energy using pumped storage or heated water stored below ground. Luckily, peak load tends to be during the day and especially during the summer months.

Not in Norhern Europe. Can't speak for Southern Europe. Air conditioning isn't so widely used here.
Graham

Destroy this argument..

xnichols@hotmail.com wrote:

On 28 Mar, 22:08, "Fran" wrote:
Why not build more of these?
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...
There's also the question of how they get all that silica.
Sand?

I imagine she meant semiconductor grade silicon. There's a world shortage.
Graham

Destroy this argument..

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:39:24 +0100, Eeyore wrote:


Fran wrote:
On Mar 29, 4:30 am, xnich...@hotmail.com wrote: This story appeard today in the International Herald Tribune: -
LISBON, Portugal: The world's largest solar power plant was inaugurated Wednesday in Portugal.(see link below) quote> "The 11-megawatt €61 million (US$78.5 million) plant, a joint project of U.S energy companies GE Energy Financial Services, PowerLight Corporation, and Portuguese renewable energy company Catavento, spreads across a 60-hectare (150-acre) hillside in Serpa, 200 kilometers (124 miles) southeast of Lisbon Southern Portugal, one of the sunniest places in Europe, has as much as 3,300 hours of sunlight a year. The new plant will produce enough power to supply 8,000 homes and will also prevent the emission of 30,000 tons of greenhouse gases a year when compared to fossil fuels." <endquote
This is a rapid brainstorm and I haven't double-checked the calculations, but using the data supplied it would seem that: -
* This solar power station can produce electricity for 8,000 homes on 150 acres. * So one square mile would produce electricity for about 34,000 homes at a cost of $334 million * Population of Portugal July 2006 estimate 10,605,870 * Assuming 4 people per home = 2,651,467.5 homes * This means you could produce all the domestic electricity in Portugal on roughly 78 square miles (say 8*10 miles) at a cost of $ 26,052, million (not including economies of scale and neglecting displaced economic activities and compensation to farmers) * Portugal's GDP = $183,619 million = 14.2% of Portugal's annual GDP
Spread out over 10 years, that would be achievable at roughly 1.4% of annual GDP Saving in Greenhouse gases = roughly 10 million tons
There's plenty of unproductive land in Southern Spain, North Africa and the South Western USA/Mexico
Why not build more of these?
link to main article:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...
I suppose you'd have to look at the initial capital and recurrent cost to work out the total cost over the effective lifetime of the plant, and the useable energy that it could generate to work out cost benefit. There's also the question of how they get all that silica.
Yes, the sun doesn't always shine, but these days there are ways of "storing" the energy using pumped storage or heated water stored below ground. Luckily, peak load tends to be during the day and especially during the summer months.
Not in Norhern Europe. Can't speak for Southern Europe. Air conditioning isn't so widely used here.
Graham

You might also wish to have a look at the civil engineering works and the costs of building dams for storage. It makes the cost of the actual solar plant look like small change. As a simple exercise , Australia consumes 574 million Kwh per day https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/as.html. If solar power was used to provide the entire power solution then storage of at least 2/3s of a day would be needed, and allowing for pumping losses and re generating losses you would need at least 1 days storage. Calculate how many dams and what capacity water wise , would be needed. Its a good exercise , and you will quickly learn that pumped hydro doesnt work for very large amounts of electricity storage.

Destroy this argument..

On Mar 29, 1:22 pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:39:24 +0100, Eeyore


rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Fran wrote:
On Mar 29, 4:30 am, xnich...@hotmail.com wrote: This story appeard today in the International Herald Tribune: -
LISBON, Portugal: The world's largest solar power plant was inaugurated Wednesday in Portugal.(see link below) quote> "The 11-megawatt ,61 million (US$78.5 million) plant, a joint project of U.S energy companies GE Energy Financial Services, PowerLight Corporation, and Portuguese renewable energy company Catavento, spreads across a 60-hectare (150-acre) hillside in Serpa, 200 kilometers (124 miles) southeast of Lisbon Southern Portugal, one of the sunniest places in Europe, has as much as 3,300 hours of sunlight a year. The new plant will produce enough power to supply 8,000 homes and will also prevent the emission of 30,000 tons of greenhouse gases a year when compared to fossil fuels." <endquote
This is a rapid brainstorm and I haven't double-checked the calculations, but using the data supplied it would seem that: -
* This solar power station can produce electricity for 8,000 homes on 150 acres. * So one square mile would produce electricity for about 34,000 homes at a cost of $334 million * Population of Portugal July 2006 estimate 10,605,870 * Assuming 4 people per home = 2,651,467.5 homes * This means you could produce all the domestic electricity in Portugal on roughly 78 square miles (say 8*10 miles) at a cost of $ 26,052, million (not including economies of scale and neglecting displaced economic activities and compensation to farmers) * Portugal's GDP = $183,619 million = 14.2% of Portugal's annual GDP
Spread out over 10 years, that would be achievable at roughly 1.4% of annual GDP Saving in Greenhouse gases = roughly 10 million tons
There's plenty of unproductive land in Southern Spain, North Africa and the South Western USA/Mexico
Why not build more of these?
link to main article:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-...
I suppose you'd have to look at the initial capital and recurrent cost to work out the total cost over the effective lifetime of the plant, and the useable energy that it could generate to work out cost benefit. There's also the question of how they get all that silica.
Yes, the sun doesn't always shine, but these days there are ways of "storing" the energy using pumped storage or heated water stored below ground. Luckily, peak load tends to be during the day and especially during the summer months.
Not in Norhern Europe. Can't speak for Southern Europe. Air conditioning isn't so widely used here.
Graham
You might also wish to have a look at the civil engineering works and the costs of building dams for storage. It makes the cost of the actual solar plant look like small change. As a simple exercise , Australia consumes 574 million Kwh per dayhttps://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/as.html. If solar power was used to provide the entire power solution then storage of at least 2/3s of a day would be needed, and allowing for pumping losses and re generating losses you would need at least 1 days storage. Calculate how many dams and what capacity water wise , would be needed. Its a good exercise , and you will quickly learn that pumped hydro doesnt work for very large amounts of electricity storage

We've been down this road before, Mauried.
Yes, dams are expensive to construct, but if their primary purpose is to supply water, and there is no more cost effective way to supply water in the volumes, at the quality and pressure needed, one must choose between abandoning those human activities dependent on it, or pay whatever it costs.
Once you do that, it's the cost of pumped storage *at the margin*, rather than *ab initio* that is relevant.
Of course, one can also use the electricity to run sewage treatment plants. That's now done with fossil-fuel energy most of the time. If you use your solar to run that and divert the energy you would have used to do that someplace else, or reduce output by that amount, then effectively, you have "stored" it. In many places in the country side, remote from the sources of power on the grid, but near sites for solar, one can get the advantages associated with local power supply. At the ends of the grid, power losses in transmission can be as high as 10%. Avoid losing most of 10% and you need less power.
Of course, I strongly favour the construction of seabord pumped storage. Why not use whatever renewable energy you have to pump seawater into a high catchment. Then, as you release the water, you get hydro, and desal. Double benefit. So the cost of the system can be spread across two pressing needs -- potable water and power.
Fran


Fran

Destroy this argument..

On Mar 29, 8:31 am, xnich...@hotmail.com wrote:

On 28 Mar, 22:08, "Fran" wrote:
Why not build more of these? link to main article:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/28/news/EU-GEN-Portugal-Solar-... There's also the question of how they get all that silica.
Sand?

No, hyperpure single-crystal silicon. It takes enormous amounts of energy to produce it, and of course this must be factored into the environmental footprint of the technology and the cost, making a long useful life for these devices key in keeping the tradeoffs positive.
There's an interesting discussion both on the process here:
http://www.future.org.au/news_2006/May/solar.html
The article notes that a new approach to the design of solar celss developed here in Australia, of all places, could radically reduce the amount of silicon needed to make solar cells, and thus make PV a more viable technology.

Yes, the sun doesn't always shine, but these days there are ways of "storing" the energy using pumped storage or heated water stored below ground. Luckily, peak load tends to be during the day and especially during the summer months.
Yes, in the U.S. South West and in Australia. Plus no one's arguing that its the only solution for producing energy.

Your comment that you could produce all of Portugal's electricity on 78sq miles does lend itself to this interpretation, even if you were just trying to make a point about the effectiveness of the technology.
Fran.

Destroy this argument..

On 29 Mar, 09:39, "Fran" wrote:

Your comment that you could produce all of Portugal's electricity on 78sq miles does lend itself to this interpretation, even if you were just trying to make a point about the effectiveness of the technology.
Fran.

Domestic electricity - assuming some method of supplying it when it's not available from Solar power sources.
I think they'd need other sources for industrial supply and/or transport - of course they have wind resources too.
Obviously the more renewable sources the better.

Destroy this argument..

Here are a few more links on the Photovoltaic power plant just opened in Portugal.
Apparently, sheep are able to graze underneath the panels, which are moveable to track the sun. A larger P-V plant is already underway in Las Vegas. This will double up as a shaded car-park. Estimated operating lives of both schemes are 30 years, with very low maintenance costs.
This raises the need for power workers' unions to reach agreements on the introduction of such new technology.
Serpa Portugal http://www.powerlight.com/about/media_page.php?id=78
Las Vegas Springs http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=23424


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