oil

From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that  fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?

"Nog" wrote in message

From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?

An honest answer is yes and no. India and China use diesel for a lot of things American use gasoline for. LikeLawn and garden equipment,motorcycle,andcars..... So a clean air fuel effecient vehicle is a 500cc diesel motorcyle that gets a150MPG. Not a hybrid that gets 40MPG and claim much more than that in normal driving. Supply and demand....
At the same time there needs to be a market for gasoline.....Americans have a very high percentage of gasoline vehicles compared to almost anywhere.
I guess it would sound a lot better with a conspiracy theory,but what can I say.

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Arnold Walker wrote:

"Nog" wrote in message From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?
An honest answer is yes and no. India and China use diesel for a lot of things American use gasoline for. LikeLawn and garden equipment,motorcycle,andcars..... So a clean air fuel effecient vehicle is a 500cc diesel motorcyle that gets a150MPG. Not a hybrid that gets 40MPG and claim much more than that in normal driving. Supply and demand....
At the same time there needs to be a market for gasoline.....Americans have a very high percentage of gasoline vehicles compared to almost anywhere.
I guess it would sound a lot better with a conspiracy theory,but what can I say.
Well here is a conspiracy. The VW 1.9 TDI engine in Jettas, Beetles and

Golfs gets 50mpg on diesel. I have ranged 53 to 49 depending on winter or summer. Being the most fuel efficient it was banned in 3 states while those states still allow the Duromax, Powerstroke and Cummings in pickups that get 8 to 18 mpg. You KNOW that is bullshit. You know they killed the Geo Metro that got 58mpg. The US does NOT WANT fuel efficiency. They make their profit and fuel tax revenue of volume. Fuel efficiency cuts into volume sales. They are blowing it out of their ass when they talk fuel efficiency. There are dozens of European cars that get over 50mpg and are denied importation into the US. European car makers are designing diesel hybrids that will get 80 to 120mpg. The United States car makers are pissing into the wind.

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"Nog" wrote in message

Arnold Walker wrote:
"Nog" wrote in message From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?
An honest answer is yes and no. India and China use diesel for a lot of things American use gasoline for. LikeLawn and garden equipment,motorcycle,andcars..... So a clean air fuel effecient vehicle is a 500cc diesel motorcyle that gets a150MPG. Not a hybrid that gets 40MPG and claim much more than that in normal driving. Supply and demand....
At the same time there needs to be a market for gasoline.....Americans have a very high percentage of gasoline vehicles compared to almost anywhere.
I guess it would sound a lot better with a conspiracy theory,but what can I say.
Well here is a conspiracy. The VW 1.9 TDI engine in Jettas, Beetles and Golfs gets 50mpg on diesel. I have ranged 53 to 49 depending on winter or summer. Being the most fuel efficient it was banned in 3 states while those states still allow the Duromax, Powerstroke and Cummings in pickups that get 8 to 18 mpg. You KNOW that is bullshit. You know they killed the Geo Metro that got 58mpg. The US does NOT WANT fuel efficiency. They make their profit and fuel tax revenue of volume. Fuel efficiency cuts into volume sales. They are blowing it out of their ass when they talk fuel efficiency. There are dozens of European cars that get over 50mpg and are denied importation into the US. European car makers are designing diesel hybrids that will get 80 to 120mpg. The United States car makers are pissing into the wind.
If what you saying is on track .....

It would explain why vegie oil and TDP conversion are not pushed harder than they are. The diesel off the "Butterball" plant is not considered bio or alternative ,though it was made from turkey guts.The implied being that you would have a small version of that replacing your trash can converting virtually everything with carbon in it to diesel.Instead of letting the city or contractors haul it off.

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"Arnold Walker" wrote in message

"Nog" wrote in message Arnold Walker wrote:
"Nog" wrote in message From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?
An honest answer is yes and no. India and China use diesel for a lot of things American use gasoline for. LikeLawn and garden equipment,motorcycle,andcars..... So a clean air fuel effecient vehicle is a 500cc diesel motorcyle that gets a150MPG. Not a hybrid that gets 40MPG and claim much more than that in normal driving. Supply and demand....
At the same time there needs to be a market for gasoline.....Americans have a very high percentage of gasoline vehicles compared to almost anywhere.
I guess it would sound a lot better with a conspiracy theory,but what can I say.
Well here is a conspiracy. The VW 1.9 TDI engine in Jettas, Beetles and Golfs gets 50mpg on diesel. I have ranged 53 to 49 depending on winter or summer. Being the most fuel efficient it was banned in 3 states while those states still allow the Duromax, Powerstroke and Cummings in pickups that get 8 to 18 mpg. You KNOW that is bullshit. You know they killed the Geo Metro that got 58mpg. The US does NOT WANT fuel efficiency. They make their profit and fuel tax revenue of volume. Fuel efficiency cuts into volume sales. They are blowing it out of their ass when they talk fuel efficiency. There are dozens of European cars that get over 50mpg and are denied importation into the US. European car makers are designing diesel hybrids that will get 80 to 120mpg. The United States car makers are pissing into the wind.
If what you saying is on track ..... It would explain why vegie oil and TDP conversion are not pushed harder than they are. The diesel off the "Butterball" plant is not considered bio or alternative ,though it was made from turkey guts.The implied being that you would have a small version of that replacing your trash can converting virtually everything with carbon in it to diesel.Instead of letting the city or contractors haul it off.
I have noted that grocery stores are starting to sell gallon jugs of vegie

oil for $0.99 cost you about 40-50 cents to make diesel. And the price at the diesel pump at that grocery store is $2.35.Many like Walmart sell both groceries and fuel. Not long ago ,it was the opposite of that on pricing...... Also noticed an increasing number of grease services tagging their bins.....worried about someone doing free pickup , instead of charging the restuarant. For a steamer, I can use the stuff that the biodiesel guys throw away.To light my solid fuel fireboxes. The solids from fry bits and grease burn like rich lighter pine.

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Arnold Walker wrote:

"Arnold Walker" wrote in message
"Nog" wrote in message Arnold Walker wrote:
"Nog" wrote in message From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?
An honest answer is yes and no. India and China use diesel for a lot of things American use gasoline for. LikeLawn and garden equipment,motorcycle,andcars..... So a clean air fuel effecient vehicle is a 500cc diesel motorcyle that gets a150MPG. Not a hybrid that gets 40MPG and claim much more than that in normal driving. Supply and demand....
At the same time there needs to be a market for gasoline.....Americans have a very high percentage of gasoline vehicles compared to almost anywhere.
I guess it would sound a lot better with a conspiracy theory,but what can I say.
Well here is a conspiracy. The VW 1.9 TDI engine in Jettas, Beetles and Golfs gets 50mpg on diesel. I have ranged 53 to 49 depending on winter or summer. Being the most fuel efficient it was banned in 3 states while those states still allow the Duromax, Powerstroke and Cummings in pickups that get 8 to 18 mpg. You KNOW that is bullshit. You know they killed the Geo Metro that got 58mpg. The US does NOT WANT fuel efficiency. They make their profit and fuel tax revenue of volume. Fuel efficiency cuts into volume sales. They are blowing it out of their ass when they talk fuel efficiency. There are dozens of European cars that get over 50mpg and are denied importation into the US. European car makers are designing diesel hybrids that will get 80 to 120mpg. The United States car makers are pissing into the wind.
If what you saying is on track ..... It would explain why vegie oil and TDP conversion are not pushed harder than they are. The diesel off the "Butterball" plant is not considered bio or alternative ,though it was made from turkey guts.The implied being that you would have a small version of that replacing your trash can converting virtually everything with carbon in it to diesel.Instead of letting the city or contractors haul it off.
I have noted that grocery stores are starting to sell gallon jugs of vegie oil for $0.99 cost you about 40-50 cents to make diesel. And the price at the diesel pump at that grocery store is $2.35.Many like Walmart sell both groceries and fuel. Not long ago ,it was the opposite of that on pricing...... Also noticed an increasing number of grease services tagging their bins.....worried about someone doing free pickup , instead of charging the restuarant. For a steamer, I can use the stuff that the biodiesel guys throw away.To light my solid fuel fireboxes. The solids from fry bits and grease burn like rich lighter pine.

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You can buy your own biodiesel making kit here: http://www.biodieselsolutions.com/products/fuelmeister.asp Make all your diesel for your car and for your furnace. All for about .50 a gallon depending on how much your veggi oil costs.

In article , "Arnold Walker" writes:

"Nog" wrote in message From the beginning of oil production all through and up to the 1990's fuel oil and diesel was cheaper than gas. The reason is that fuel oil and diesel is a less refined product than the lighter gasoline. It costs less to produce. So what happened? How did fuel oil and diesel become more expensive than gasoline? It still is a less refined product. And gasoline is a more frigged with product with additives and all kinds of EPA bullshit. Is somebody jerking our chains again? Trying to raise the cost of freight which makes all products go up?
An honest answer is yes and no. India and China use diesel for a lot of things American use gasoline for. LikeLawn and garden equipment,motorcycle,andcars..... So a clean air fuel effecient vehicle is a 500cc diesel motorcyle that gets a150MPG. Not a hybrid that gets 40MPG and claim much more than that in normal driving. Supply and demand....
At the same time there needs to be a market for gasoline.....Americans have a very high percentage of gasoline vehicles compared to almost anywhere.
I guess it would sound a lot better with a conspiracy theory,but what can I say.

Diesel does tend to have higher effeciency than gasoline owing to the fact that higher compression ratios allow for greater thermodynamic effeciency.
However, I would debate the "clean" assertion. Diesel tends to be high in particulate output, soot, many components of which are known carcinogens. The higher compression ratios used also generate more NOx emissions resulting in acid rain.
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Steve Spence wrote:

Nog wrote:
You can buy your own biodiesel making kit here: http://www.biodieselsolutions.com/products/fuelmeister.asp Make all your diesel for your car and for your furnace. All for about .50 a gallon depending on how much your veggi oil costs.
Or you could save a few thousand and build a safer to operate unit for a couple of hundred bucks yourself by looking at http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/
Safer to operate? By manually pouring and mixing? Tieing together old water

heaters and rusty barrels? No thanks. I'd rather open and close valves and start and stop pumps.

Steve Spence wrote:

Nog wrote: Steve Spence wrote:
Nog wrote:
You can buy your own biodiesel making kit here: http://www.biodieselsolutions.com/products/fuelmeister.asp Make all your diesel for your car and for your furnace. All for about .50 a gallon depending on how much your veggi oil costs. Or you could save a few thousand and build a safer to operate unit for a couple of hundred bucks yourself by looking at http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/
Safer to operate? By manually pouring and mixing? Tieing together old water heaters and rusty barrels? No thanks. I'd rather open and close valves and start and stop pumps.
No kidding. and that's how it's done, by opening and closing valves, and starting and stopping the pump. We don't use old water heaters. Brand new ones are cheap. The "automatic" units have plastic drums that melt and cause fires. We use steel, fumeless designs. much safer.
Plastic drums that melt? Is that why gas stations have replaced all the

metal storage tanks with plastic ones? So they leak more? Melt and burn?

"Nog" wrote in message

Steve Spence wrote:
Nog wrote: Steve Spence wrote:
Nog wrote:
You can buy your own biodiesel making kit here: http://www.biodieselsolutions.com/products/fuelmeister.asp Make all your diesel for your car and for your furnace. All for about .50 a gallon depending on how much your veggi oil costs. Or you could save a few thousand and build a safer to operate unit for a couple of hundred bucks yourself by looking at http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/
Safer to operate? By manually pouring and mixing? Tieing together old water heaters and rusty barrels? No thanks. I'd rather open and close valves and start and stop pumps.
No kidding. and that's how it's done, by opening and closing valves, and starting and stopping the pump. We don't use old water heaters. Brand new ones are cheap. The "automatic" units have plastic drums that melt and cause fires. We use steel, fumeless designs. much safer.
Plastic drums that melt? Is that why gas stations have replaced all the metal storage tanks with plastic ones? So they leak more? Melt and burn?
Actually,you hit on why the energy bill included an"liability exemption "

for the unlead gas additive. Because it absorbs thru the walls of the fiberglass tanks, Uncle Sam required. Fast enorgh to have more than few government agencies ....shaking thier head and wondering at the results of their good intend.Or how to deal with the mess it turned out to be.

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On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:58:30 GMT, atthebeep@hotmail.com wrote:

It's estimated there is enough shale rock right here in the U.S. that if we extracted all the oil just from the shale, it would come to over 3 Trillon barrels.

Exactly what would it take to retrieve, (Embedded in nonporous oil rock @ depth of ~1000fta), all that Type III and IV Kerogen and turn it in useful product. .. Once you answer those questions, then you'll know why the oil co's have chosen to just leave it in the ground..
As usual .. the devil is in the details.