Siting of panels for solar water heating

In message , Mary Fisher writes

"John Beardmore" wrote in message
Some cooks seem keen to have washing up water hot enough to blister skin too...
I know. And then wear gloves to protect their hands from it.
Daft I call it.
:) As an IOSH member I couldn't possibly comment !
I give in. What's IOSH - Inspectorate of Safety Hazards?

Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , Andy Hall writes

On 2006-11-25 16:47:35 +0000, John Beardmore said:
In message , Andy Hall writes On 2006-11-25 12:42:53 +0000, John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> said: In message , Andy Hall writes On 2006-11-25 11:56:52 +0000, David Hansen SENDdavidNOhSPAM@spidacom.co.uk> said: On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:41:34 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall andyh@hall.nospam> :-
Has still to propose, in some detail, something better. I don't *have* to anything. There are already plenty of ideas; the most obvious of which is to take the local authorities out of the food chain. Hardly a detailed proposal for what should replace them. I didn't set out to provide a detailed proposal - Indeed.
simply an outline of what obviously needs to be done. Yes - it is an outline, but until the details are known, it's not obviously better than the situation we have now.
It really isn't rocket science to work out that if one takes out a non productive cost element from a product or service, it can be delivered to the customer for less money, or the customer can get more for the same money.

Indeed, though we differ in that you believe that the LA layer contributes nothing, and having seen it up close, I'm not sure I agree.
Without seeing what you propose in detail, I can't say if you cover all the bases or not.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

"John Beardmore" wrote in message

In message , Mary Fisher mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> writes "John Beardmore" wrote in message
Some cooks seem keen to have washing up water hot enough to blister skin too...
I know. And then wear gloves to protect their hands from it.
Daft I call it.
:) As an IOSH member I couldn't possibly comment !
I give in. What's IOSH - Inspectorate of Safety Hazards?
Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.

I was close :-)
Mary >

In message , Mary Fisher writes

"John Beardmore" wrote in message In message , Andy Hall writes On 2006-11-25 12:49:59 +0000, John Beardmore <wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk said:
I think you'll find there is more than one solution. One might be for you to sort your own waste in a responsible way.
That's not necessary
Not necessary in the same sense as eating or breathing.
Perhaps necessary in the same sense as not cutting down all the trees.
or interesting to do.
Many things that we need to do to survive are not hugely interesting.
Especially those things which women traditionally do. Like feed men,

:) All in favour say 'Aye' !

clean up after them

:) You might think that - I couldn't possibly comment.

and wash their pants.

:) Terrible thing those pants...

Unless they have disposable ones of course ...

They'd have to be compostable...

I already pay for a refusal disposal service - I don't therefore expect to have to do half the job myself.
It's hardly half!

Agreed !
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

On 2006-11-25 20:45:46 +0000, John Beardmore said:

In message , Andy Hall writes
It really isn't rocket science to work out that if one takes out a non productive cost element from a product or service, it can be delivered to the customer for less money, or the customer can get more for the same money.
Indeed, though we differ in that you believe that the LA layer contributes nothing, and having seen it up close, I'm not sure I agree.

I've seen enough to be able to see that if many of the people were doing equivalent jobs in the private sector, they would be out of the door. Standards are very disappointing among LA employees from my observations.

Without seeing what you propose in detail, I can't say if you cover all the bases or not.

There isn't a need to cover all of the bases. Only those that actually make a difference.

In message , Andy Hall writes

On 2006-11-25 20:45:46 +0000, John Beardmore said:
In message , Andy Hall writes It really isn't rocket science to work out that if one takes out a non productive cost element from a product or service, it can be delivered to the customer for less money, or the customer can get more for the same money. Indeed, though we differ in that you believe that the LA layer contributes nothing, and having seen it up close, I'm not sure I agree.
I've seen enough to be able to see that if many of the people were doing equivalent jobs in the private sector, they would be out of the door. Standards are very disappointing among LA employees from my observations.

Yes - there are some sad fossils, but we're going round in circles here. I won't bother to reiterate my view. Just take it as read that we'll have to agree to differ.

Without seeing what you propose in detail, I can't say if you cover all the bases or not.
There isn't a need to cover all of the bases. Only those that actually make a difference.

I have the feeling that we'd draw up different lists. Nothing wrong in that per se, but I would want to see what you propose in detail before I'd consider voting for it.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , Mary Fisher writes

"John Beardmore" wrote in message In message , Mary Fisher mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> writes "John Beardmore" wrote in message
Some cooks seem keen to have washing up water hot enough to blister skin too...
I know. And then wear gloves to protect their hands from it.
Daft I call it.
:) As an IOSH member I couldn't possibly comment !
I give in. What's IOSH - Inspectorate of Safety Hazards?
Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.
I was close :-)

Yes - I don't inspect things, though occasionally audit them. That's more on the energy side than health and safety though.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , Owain writes

John Beardmore wrote: Competition almost always results in the customer getting what they want at the right price. I want an electron microscope for 50p. Almost...
Have you tried those police auction websites?

No. Do they often have EMs ? I do know somebody who got an SEM for �50 which worked after a fairly trivial fix. I'd go for that...
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , meow2222@care2.com writes

John Beardmore wrote: In message , Andy Hall writes
Competition almost always results in the customer getting what they want at the right price.
I want an electron microscope for 50p.
Capitalism expands the options. I was about to say it doesnt create the imposible, but actually it does, its because of capitalism we have 4G CPUs today. If computer manufacture were left to LAs we'd still be using the 286.

On the other hand, it's only because of micrsoft that we need 4G processors for writing letters.
What we write makes no more sense and is of little more consequence than it was when we wrote them on Z80 based systems !
Progress should not be the only game in town if it doesn't make what we do any more effective.

Yesterday shredders cost �8 and up. Today they cost �1, and sell, because someone realised customers wanted them and then managed to work out how to do it.
LAs dont even try in this respect. They dont even have the skill set.

Actually I think they do in many cases. One thing LAs are good at is training, but where they fail is in not letting people take risks to innovate. Staff often know what the problems are, but are powerless to do much about them within the LA political framework.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

On 2006-11-25 21:36:07 +0000, John Beardmore said:

In message , Andy Hall writes On 2006-11-25 20:45:46 +0000, John Beardmore said:
In message , Andy Hall writes It really isn't rocket science to work out that if one takes out a non productive cost element from a product or service, it can be delivered to the customer for less money, or the customer can get more for the same money. Indeed, though we differ in that you believe that the LA layer contributes nothing, and having seen it up close, I'm not sure I agree.
I've seen enough to be able to see that if many of the people were doing equivalent jobs in the private sector, they would be out of the door. Standards are very disappointing among LA employees from my observations.
Yes - there are some sad fossils, but we're going round in circles here.

I haven't changed my position.

I won't bother to reiterate my view. Just take it as read that we'll have to agree to differ.

OK. You wouldn't be an LA employee would you?

Without seeing what you propose in detail, I can't say if you cover all the bases or not.
There isn't a need to cover all of the bases. Only those that actually make a difference.
I have the feeling that we'd draw up different lists. Nothing wrong in that per se, but I would want to see what you propose in detail before I'd consider voting for it.

Certainly the whole issue should be made democratic. Currently, we vote periodically for people entrusted to do our bidding. I don't think that that is granular enough. In the area we've been discussing, there is little to no democracy at all.
So.... why not make it so. For the local authority elections, it would be a simple matter to put different implementation alternatives on the ballot papers as well as the candidates.
In other words, people who want to have a green package involving all the things you've described can vote for that. People who want the cheapest service can vote for it. Those who want a higher level of service and are willing to pay a little more *as long as it is delivered* can vote for that.
The outcome would be interesting. My guess is that where I am, the percentages would be about 25/50/25 of the turn out respectively - bearing in mind that local elections are never well attended.
This was why I came to the conclusion that it makes much more sense to allow people to buy the level of service they want, according to their circumstances and priorities.

On 2006-11-25 21:50:32 +0000, John Beardmore said:

In message , Owain owain47125@stirlingcity.coo.uk> writes John Beardmore wrote: Competition almost always results in the customer getting what they want at the right price. I want an electron microscope for 50p. Almost...
Have you tried those police auction websites?
No. Do they often have EMs ? I do know somebody who got an SEM for �50 which worked after a fairly trivial fix. I'd go for that...

But what would you use it for?

In message , Mary Fisher writes

"John Beardmore" wrote in message In message , Mary Fisher mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> writes
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH FORTNIGHTLY BIN COLLECTIONS!
Can we all play ?
You have to throw a six to start :-)

Good job I didn't ! I'd just found /usr/games/banner on the Linux box...

changing subject - horrors!
We painted our sittiing room recently (yes, water based environmentally friendly paint so pure you can put the remains on your compost heap)

Hmmm... Very consistent with 'Directive 2004/42/CE on the limitation of VOCs due to the use of organic solvents in certain paints and varnishes' !

and I had to move all the stored board games.
I'd forgotten one, bought in the seventies I think, called POLLUTION. ISTR that the aim was to trade pollutants ...

EU ETS here we come !
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , Andy Hall writes

On 2006-11-25 21:36:07 +0000, John Beardmore said:
In message , Andy Hall writes On 2006-11-25 20:45:46 +0000, John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> said:
In message , Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam writes It really isn't rocket science to work out that if one takes out non productive cost element from a product or service, it can be delivered to the customer for less money, or the customer can get more for the same money. Indeed, though we differ in that you believe that the LA layer contributes nothing, and having seen it up close, I'm not sure I agree. I've seen enough to be able to see that if many of the people were doing equivalent jobs in the private sector, they would be out of the door. Standards are very disappointing among LA employees from my observations. Yes - there are some sad fossils, but we're going round in circles here.
I haven't changed my position.

Nor have I.

I won't bother to reiterate my view. Just take it as read that we'll have to agree to differ.
OK. You wouldn't be an LA employee would you?

No - and wouldn't want to be.

Without seeing what you propose in detail, I can't say if you cover all the bases or not. There isn't a need to cover all of the bases. Only those that actually make a difference. I have the feeling that we'd draw up different lists. Nothing wrong in that per se, but I would want to see what you propose in detail before I'd consider voting for it.
Certainly the whole issue should be made democratic. Currently, we vote periodically for people entrusted to do our bidding. I don't think that that is granular enough.

Agreed.

In the area we've been discussing, there is little to no democracy at all.

In fact, there is no democracy in most areas. Saying 'left a bit' or 'right a bit' every few years doesn't come close.

So.... why not make it so. For the local authority elections, it would be a simple matter to put different implementation alternatives on the ballot papers as well as the candidates.

Yes - but as LAs deal with so many issues waste would be lost in the noise. You really need voting on a per issue basis, including consent to pay - otherwise people will vote for micro budget with macro deliverables.

In other words, people who want to have a green package involving all the things you've described can vote for that. People who want the cheapest service can vote for it. Those who want a higher level of service and are willing to pay a little more *as long as it is delivered* can vote for that.
The outcome would be interesting. My guess is that where I am, the percentages would be about 25/50/25 of the turn out respectively - bearing in mind that local elections are never well attended.

You may be right, though I'd be quite happy to take the less sustainable options off the agenda.
In other words, you can pick a rate of collection, the uniform the people that collect ware etc, but your waste will be separated. Either you will do it or you will be billed for its having been done.

This was why I came to the conclusion that it makes much more sense to allow people to buy the level of service they want, according to their circumstances and priorities.

I'm not sure that meeting minimum environmental standards should be optional, but above, we seem to confusing voting for a particular single solution and allowing people to choose from a palette of solutions.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , Andy Hall writes

On 2006-11-25 21:50:32 +0000, John Beardmore said:
In message , Owain owain47125@stirlingcity.coo.uk> writes John Beardmore wrote: Competition almost always results in the customer getting what they want at the right price. I want an electron microscope for 50p. Almost... Have you tried those police auction websites? No. Do they often have EMs ? I do know somebody who got an SEM for �50 which worked after a fairly trivial fix. I'd go for that...
But what would you use it for?

I never had any trouble finding interesting things to do with a decent optical microscope. Another three orders of magnitude magnification shouldn't make the world any less interesting ! Think of it as a leisure activity, but I might find the odd commercial use.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

On uk.environment, in , "Andy Hall" wrote:

On 2006-11-25 17:44:41 +0000, Owain owain47125@stirlingcity.coo.uk> said:
Andy Hall wrote:
There still is 20p deposit on Barr's Irn-Bru bottles. I have I don't seem to see them here - only plastic bottles. Perhaps only the sugary version is in glass, or do they do the non sugary one in glass as well?
Perhaps they only do the glass bottles in Scotland.
It's hard to imagine a non-sugary version of the product.
It certainly exists. I don't know what the sugary one is like because I only buy non-sugary drinks.

There are going to be some disappointed people researching solar panels in the Usenet archives.
Alan
-- http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/survival/index.html http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/linux-unix/index.html