Siting of panels for solar water heating

In message , meow2222@care2.com writes

John Beardmore wrote: In message , meow2222@care2.com writes John Beardmore wrote: In message , meow2222@care2.com writes
To understand that they'd need to see the connection between supply & fit cost and the energy input in supplying and fitting it. Very briefly, money is a form of measure of energy.
It may be an indicator, but not a very good one !
I wrote about / explained the money -energy connection in detail just recently, so I dont want to again.
No need - it was unconvincing the first time as indeed I pointed out giving at least one example of why.
your example illustrates your unfamiliarity with the concept. I'll go see if I've got the link...
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6888&sid=5ca008e7 75816416ce3381a9440c4fc2 Relevant posts are mostly on the first few page and the last.
Well, they certainly restate your position, but they don't answer the points I raised when this first came up in this thread, or deal with the example I gave.
so you didnt read the linked pages.

Yes - I did, but they didn't address the example I gave, or for that matter, even slightly convince me you are right about this.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:19:37 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" wrote this:-

Meat remains?
That's like talking about left-over champagne!

Chicken carcass, with bones, skin, a little meat and the like is the sort of thing I was thinking of.
One of the problems with fridges and weekly bin collections is that it has encouraged some people to buy large amounts of over-packaged pre-cooked food, which they heat up in the oven at relatively large cost. When this food gets near the "use-by" date they throw it in the bin. Educating such people out of their wasteful habits does involve overcoming some whining, but it is worth it.

-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:18:40 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" wrote this:-

I agree. We put out ours weekly because it's collected weekly and since the bins are loaded in pairs it makes no difference to the energy needed (= cost to the operator).

ISTR that the expert on "It's not easy being green" said he threw out the equivalent of about one plastic shopping bag of things for landfill a year.
-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:54:57 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:47:16 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry peter@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote this:-
What about the poor neighbours of such an anti-social person who cares so little for their environment that they leave meat remains to rot for a month?
The worms in the wormery like to eat meat remains.

I'm sure they do, it's not of much interest to a flat dweller with no garden though. It is also illegal if you have a pet pig.

Meat remains can be boiled up for stock. The remaining remains son't attract pests.

As a vital ingredient in cooking stock can only be made from good quality fresh ingredients and certainly not from waste cooked food. Unless kept sterile boiled bones, fish remains and chicken carcasses attract blowflies and rats as well as any other remains.
The inside of a black bin isn't exactly sterile and councils are not allowed to treat any waste from a domestic kitchen as compostible (Animal By-Products Order 1999, as amended).
Following the introduction of fortnightly collections (never mind monthly) Wycombe District Council recorded a rise in insect infestation from 7 to 41% and rat sightings from 7 to 10%
The local council here (along with many others of course) managed to bump their "recycling" figure up dramatically by the simple expedient of using a good dollop of greenwash. They started enthusiastically collecting grass clippings and garden waste, something they had refused to do previously.
-- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In message , David Hansen writes

One of the problems with fridges and weekly bin collections is that it has encouraged some people to buy large amounts of over-packaged pre-cooked food,

Not sure that the bin schedule has much to do with that ?

which they heat up in the oven at relatively large cost.

Or microwaves which couple the national grid to the food a bit more effectively.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , David Hansen writes

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:52:47 +0000 someone who may be John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote this:-
Fortnightly bin collections are not acceptable. It isn't clever, or green, just cheapness and unacceptable.
Well - that's your view. I wouldn't want to pay more for what you seem to regard as some minimal standard of service.
Indeed. Some would rather pay for a monthly general bin collection.

Would be fine for me, though I'm still not convinced that private contractors sound that great.

Those that want to put a bin out every week should not be subsidised by others, they should pay for the waste they generate.

Hmmm... Given the tradition in this country has been weekly collections, I can see why people start from the assumption that this is the norm.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

The message from David Hansen contains these words:

Chicken carcass, with bones, skin, a little meat and the like is the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Provided you don't overdo it, most compost heaps will cope fine with a few things like that. Not a chicken a week or anything like that, but one a month will get dealt with by the bugs and things. Just don't leave 'em on top where the flies can get at them.
-- Skipweasel Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In message , Mary Fisher writes

"David Hansen" wrote in message On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:47:16 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry peter@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote this:-
What about the poor neighbours of such an anti-social person who cares so little for their environment that they leave meat remains to rot for a month?
The worms in the wormery like to eat meat remains.
Meat remains can be boiled up for stock. The remaining remains son't attract pests.
Meat remains?
That's like talking about left-over champagne!

Indeed !
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

"David Hansen" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:19:37 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote this:-
Meat remains?
That's like talking about left-over champagne!
Chicken carcass, with bones, skin, a little meat and the like is the sort of thing I was thinking of.
One of the problems with fridges and weekly bin collections is that it has encouraged some people to buy large amounts of over-packaged pre-cooked food, which they heat up in the oven at relatively large cost. When this food gets near the "use-by" date they throw it in the bin. Educating such people out of their wasteful habits does involve overcoming some whining, but it is worth it.

I suppose so - I have no experience of such pre-cooked stuff.
When we cook meat on the bone all the soft residue after making stock is given to the poultry (illegally), the bones are taken to the neighbour's dog. He consumes every scrap.
We very rarely eat poultry. Not more than once a year. Residues are made into stock, the remains wouldn't attract any kind of 'vermin', insect or otherwise.
We killed a cockerel a few weeks ago, he'll be Christmas dinner.
Mary

"Guy King" wrote in message

The message <1u29m2192ohqsd9kk85iufeahu0nba63kc@4ax.com from David Hansen contains these words:
Chicken carcass, with bones, skin, a little meat and the like is the sort of thing I was thinking of.
Provided you don't overdo it, most compost heaps will cope fine with a few things like that. Not a chicken a week or anything like that, but one a month will get dealt with by the bugs and things. Just don't leave 'em on top where the flies can get at them.

I wouldn't put any kind of meat in the compost heap. It might be illogical but that's not what we do.
Mary

-- Skipweasel Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

"David Hansen" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:18:40 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote this:-
I agree. We put out ours weekly because it's collected weekly and since the bins are loaded in pairs it makes no difference to the energy needed (= cost to the operator).
ISTR that the expert on "It's not easy being green" said he threw out the equivalent of about one plastic shopping bag of things for landfill a year.

I think you're referring to a tv programme.
We don't have a tv.
Mary >

On 2006-11-22 17:44:47 +0000, David Hansen said:

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:19:37 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote this:-
Meat remains?
That's like talking about left-over champagne!
Chicken carcass, with bones, skin, a little meat and the like is the sort of thing I was thinking of.
One of the problems with fridges and weekly bin collections is that it has encouraged some people to buy large amounts of over-packaged pre-cooked food, which they heat up in the oven at relatively large cost. When this food gets near the "use-by" date they throw it in the bin. Educating such people out of their wasteful habits does involve overcoming some whining, but it is worth it.

If they wish to be wasteful as you see it for their convenience, then that is their choice. They are already paying for that at the front end.
The refuse disposal system should be able to deal with that, regardless of what is presented. That is what these buffoons at the local authority are paid to do. The work should not be pushed onto the customer on yet another silly greenwash pretext. Yet again, it's using dishonest moral blackmail to cover incompetence and ineptitude on the part of those paid to do a job but don't do it.

On 2006-11-22 17:51:54 +0000, Peter Parry said:

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:54:57 +0000, David Hansen SENDdavidNOhSPAM@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:47:16 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry peter@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote this:-
What about the poor neighbours of such an anti-social person who cares so little for their environment that they leave meat remains to rot for a month?
The worms in the wormery like to eat meat remains.
I'm sure they do, it's not of much interest to a flat dweller with no garden though. It is also illegal if you have a pet pig.
Meat remains can be boiled up for stock. The remaining remains son't attract pests.
As a vital ingredient in cooking stock can only be made from good quality fresh ingredients and certainly not from waste cooked food. Unless kept sterile boiled bones, fish remains and chicken carcasses attract blowflies and rats as well as any other remains. The inside of a black bin isn't exactly sterile and councils are not allowed to treat any waste from a domestic kitchen as compostible (Animal By-Products Order 1999, as amended). Following the introduction of fortnightly collections (never mind monthly) Wycombe District Council recorded a rise in insect infestation from 7 to 41% and rat sightings from 7 to 10%

Absolutely. The moment the LA try to pull that stunt here, they will be inundated with regular and comprehensive requests to come and deal with the consequences of their actions.

The local council here (along with many others of course) managed to bump their "recycling" figure up dramatically by the simple expedient of using a good dollop of greenwash. They started enthusiastically collecting grass clippings and garden waste, something they had refused to do previously.

More complete bollocks..... Who are they trying to kid?

On 2006-11-22 18:07:56 +0000, John Beardmore said:

In message , David Hansen SENDdavidNOhSPAM@spidacom.co.uk> writes On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:52:47 +0000 someone who may be John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote this:-
Fortnightly bin collections are not acceptable. It isn't clever, or green, just cheapness and unacceptable.
Well - that's your view. I wouldn't want to pay more for what you seem to regard as some minimal standard of service.
Indeed. Some would rather pay for a monthly general bin collection.
Would be fine for me, though I'm still not convinced that private contractors sound that great.
Those that want to put a bin out every week should not be subsidised by others, they should pay for the waste they generate.
Hmmm... Given the tradition in this country has been weekly collections, I can see why people start from the assumption that this is the norm.

It is the norm and it is what these people are paid to do.
If they want to reduce that for cost reasons, then fine, but then take that element out of the council tax, and I'll make my own arrangements with a private contractor.
Of course, what *should* happen is that instead of spinning greenwashed rubbish and expecting people to be gullible enough to fall for it, there should be massive reductions in LA employees.

On 2006-11-22 14:44:27 +0000, David Hansen said:

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:36:56 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall andyh@hall.nospam> wrote this:-
The key is encouraging people to organise these bits of their lives. if they do get organised then things like fortnightly bin collections are no problem.
This is complete and utter bullshit.
Yawn. What a surprise, more aggressive language.

It isn't at all. Why on earth do you imagine, in your wildest dreams that people will want to organise their lives to support what is in reality a cost saving measure that will simply be an excuse to employ more bozos to run it.
If you thought that that was aggressive language, you haven't seen anything.
The simple fact is that these people are paid to deliver a service and now expect the customer to adjust their mode of use of that service to suit the supplier. It's complete and utter bullshit and frankly that is being very mild and kind about it.
If they don't want to deliver the service that the customer wants and is paying a great deal of money for, then that's fine. The quid-pro-quo is that the customer shops elsewhere.