Siting of panels for solar water heating

Thanks for your kookfart, Beavis.
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Joe Fischer wrote:

On 19 Nov 2006 01:43:53 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
Outside city limits in the US, people are often free to build anything, but the power companies may not turn power on in new construction without an inspection.

wish we still had something like that. New builds here are tighly controlled everywhere. Nearly all our land is a no-go zone for new build.

In row houses, there is a problem, and I guess it is row houses or buildings built to the lot line and in contact or close enough for fire to jump is likely the reason for the problems in 1666.

In 1666 most houses in London were wood frame. Most were terraced. Streets were very narrow. Most houses had jetties, reducing the across-road spacing further. There were no firebreaks of any kind, wooden structures touched. Thatch was common. There was no fire brigade and minimal fire fighting equipment. The standard method of firefighting at the time was to pull down 2 houses to create a break in the fire. Needless to say, the fire of 1666 razed the city.

Connecting buildings can save energy, but a good designer will put a fire wall all the way up from the ground to well above the roof.

Even in new build terraces we dont have that. Thre are some historic buildings with a firewall that rises maybe 3 bricks above the roofline, but most houses dont have those.
There are also still some old houses with no dividing wall in the loft. That usually gets sorted when a property is sold, but of course many have not been sold in decades.
Today I guess we rely more on the fire brigade than on firebreaks. With our much shorter travelling distances than the US, this works fairly well.
NT

On 21 Nov 2006 00:33:06 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote: Outside city limits in the US, people are often free to build anything, but the power companies may not turn power on in new construction without an inspection.
wish we still had something like that. New builds here are tighly controlled everywhere. Nearly all our land is a no-go zone for new build.

Do you mean no building permits? There are areas here where there are no sanitary sewers and the water table is inches from the surface and no percolation for septic tanks, so residential building is no permitted.
New building is essential in the US, with a million legal immigrants a year, and a million or so illegal, new housing fills up fast.
If it wasn't for the Mexican immigrants and part time cross-border worker programs, it would be almost impossible to get any work done here, too many college boys in tennis shoes that have hands that don't fit tools of any kind.
Joe Fischer

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:19:38 +0000, John Beardmore wrote:

It was 1172k encoded so should be OK, and I've had no bounce or rejection message. There yet ?

Yes thank you. I think the electrons were using a bicycle as they seem to have spent 6 hours with AAISP along the way :-). The report is very interesting.

Somebody was saying that the had 24,000,000 worth of orders, which is certainly very depressing if true !!

Indeed, at that level of sales the number of people complaining about "alternatives" not working is likely to be significant.

Yes - were typically expecting a 1 or 2% capacity factor.

That seems to be about right. The only one I've seen any (patchy) data on seems to be generating marginally less electricity than its controller is using. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:01:59 +0000 someone who may be John Beardmore wrote this:-

Heat losses from the collector to the air largely account for the performance difference between flat plate and evacuated tube systems, so air temperature does matter.

At the point where one is deciding on a system.

-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:08:54 GMT someone who may be raden wrote this:-

That's not what I meant - I meant that on a reasonable day when you need it, i.e. warmer than usual winter's day, it's marginally above useless

The system concerned has raised the temperature of the water from say 5C to 25C, in the winter. That strikes me as very useful.
As was said, the boiler would need to be turned on to raise the temperature further, but that is as expected.
-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:19:54 GMT someone who may be raden wrote this:-

Not really doing the biz when it's req'd though, is it

Hot water is required all year round. The system is producing it, though in different quantities depending on the season. A useful system.
-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In message , Peter Parry writes

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:19:38 +0000, John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
It was 1172k encoded so should be OK, and I've had no bounce or rejection message. There yet ?
Yes thank you. I think the electrons were using a bicycle as they seem to have spent 6 hours with AAISP along the way :-). The report is very interesting.
Somebody was saying that the had 24,000,000 worth of orders, which is certainly very depressing if true !!
Indeed, at that level of sales the number of people complaining about "alternatives" not working is likely to be significant.
Yes - were typically expecting a 1 or 2% capacity factor.
That seems to be about right. The only one I've seen any (patchy) data on seems to be generating marginally less electricity than its controller is using.

Sounds about right - and why does the controller need so much power ?
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , David Hansen writes

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 21:01:59 +0000 someone who may be John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote this:-
Heat losses from the collector to the air largely account for the performance difference between flat plate and evacuated tube systems, so air temperature does matter.
At the point where one is deciding on a system.

Well - presumably it matters in use too ?
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , raden writes

In message , Mary Fisher writes
It is very good. Even if the temperature in the cylinder needs to be boosted it will use far less gas and time than if the mains cold feed were being heated.
Just keep telling yourself that

Why not ? It's correct after all !

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to have solar water heating, I do wonder why people try to prove that our system isn't good.
I think you have already proved it yourself

I think you have proved that there are people out to rubbish solar, that either know nothing about it, or are willing to let the facts pass them by.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , raden writes

In message , David Hansen SENDdavidNOhSPAM@spidacom.co.uk> writes On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:46:16 GMT someone who may be raden raden@kateda.org> wrote this:-
Solar water heating works on the sun, not the external temperature. The two do have some relationship, but the temperature from a solar system essentially depends on the length and intensity of the sunlight, the external temperature is largely irrelevant (except for frost protection in some systems).
That's not what I meant - I meant that on a reasonable day when you need it, i.e. warmer than usual winter's day, it's marginally above useless

None of which changes the fact that whatever energy it does produce in winter will get used. The same tends to be true in spring and autumn. Granted you may have a surplus in summer.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , raden writes

In message , John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> writes In message , raden <raden@kateda.org writes In message , Mary Fisher writes
Today, with the outside temperature at 6C (and overcast sky) we had water at 25C. That's not hot enough for Spouse's washing up or my baths but it's fine for hand washing and it means that the boiler won't need to be on as long to raise the water temperature to his acceptable level.
So, considering it's not really cold and your system's struggling
not really very good then
Considering it's one of the three months with the shortest day lengths and the amount of fossil fuel required for DHW is still being reduced,
Not really doing the biz when it's req'd though, is it

Nobody said it would 'do the biz' - only that it would save some fuel.

As long as she feels she is doing something, it's OK (whatever the reality of the situation is)

Well - the reality is that she IS doing something. Your blessing and approval are not required.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

"John Beardmore" wrote in message

That's not what I meant - I meant that on a reasonable day when you need it, i.e. warmer than usual winter's day, it's marginally above useless
None of which changes the fact that whatever energy it does produce in winter will get used. The same tends to be true in spring and autumn. Granted you may have a surplus in summer.

But if you organise your life it won't be _wasted_. Because of various spells of being in hospital this year we haven't been as active as normal but we still managed to do more tasks for which hot water is preferable to cold - and which are more pleasant and/or easier in summer than in winter.
I'm not the world's most organised person but I'm not going to waste something which is free at point of use :-)
Mary

In message , Alan Connor writes

On uk.environment, in , "raden" wrote:
snip
As long as she feels she is doing something, it's OK (whatever the reality of the situation is)
That's garbage.
You must be an Environmentalist. They all feel like they are doing something to save the planet, although 35+ years of data clearly reveals that they aren't.
And they seem to think thats OK, because they aren't changing their strategy.
And their PR machine is still telling everyone that they are accomplishing something.
Which they obviously think is OK.
Neither of them are OK.
Far from it.
Alan

Smells a bit in here...
Could be some kind of PHARARARART ?
J/. -- John Beardmore

In message , raden writes

In message , John Beardmore wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> writes In message , Joe Fischer joe@westpointracing.com> writes "cynic" wrote:
Vacuum tube arrays could possibly be produced fairly cheap, just as 4 foot fluorescent tubes only cost 99 cents the last time I bought them, but I don't have much hope of seeing them sold to the DIY gang in small quantities at a good price.
It's getting better, mostly thanks to the Chinese !
I think I'd argue the exact opposite
... but if you think so, and it keeps you happy ...

My happiness is neither here or there. If you have a point, feel free to make it.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore