Siting of panels for solar water heating

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message

The solution really needs to focus on renewable energy,

You standing for President?

In the immediate future, global warming is not the scary thing, volcanic activity on the continent of Antarctica should be the most feared thing by property owners in low lying coastal areas.
And second, maybe volcanic activity in Greenland.

I've been told that the volcano which formed Yellowstone National Park (or is it the Grand Canyon - you know Brits, we don't know the difference) is about to blow at any time.
By a citizen of USA.

"John Beardmore" wrote in message

In message , Mary Fisher mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> writes "John Beardmore" wrote in message
Well - solar DHW meets out bathing needs directly for about 6 months of the year. I commend it to you !
It meets ours for longer than that
Ours too, but let's not over sell it...

Sorry. I'm just honest, I wasn't bragging, just surprised.

and it meets the needs of almost all our sink and washbasin needs
Same here.
and the washing machine too.
Couldn't get a hot fill washing machine, even the A rated ones seem to be cold fill / heat electric.

Ours is quite old and it does have a hw fill.
Mary

In message , meow2222@care2.com writes

John Beardmore wrote: In message <1163835127.443384.291590@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>, Meow2222@care2.com writes
To understand that they'd need to see the connection between supply & fit cost and the energy input in supplying and fitting it. Very briefly, money is a form of measure of energy.
It may be an indicator, but not a very good one !
I wrote about / explained the money -energy connection in detail just recently, so I dont want to again.

No need - it was unconvincing the first time as indeed I pointed out giving at least one example of why.
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

"John Beardmore" wrote in message

It is important to work on these problems without getting too concerned about the pace things are moving, the majority of people simply do not have the money to do much of anything, and if it costs money to save money, they don't have the money unless they are in a position to borrow the money.
Yes, thats a common problem. Reality is there are very cheap ways to do things when needed. At one house I saw cardboard cavities on solid walls, that can be done for peanuts. Borax fire retardant �1, knife �1, wallpaper glue �1.

We did something like that on the inside of our roof in the loft. It was VERY effective.

Yes - but I'm not sure that such insulation will last too long ?

Twenty years to date.

Plastic film secondary glazing is fairly cheap, though reuse of old glass is a much better bet.
But needs some sort of frame making.

The plastic is visually awful. Re-using glass needs skill to cut to size. Self-made double glazing has problems - I know that from personal experience. It's fine in the short term but problem show up after a couple of years.

Poverty equals lack of time for such extras, but when theres savings to be had, some will do it, once they know it can be done.
Yes, but it still takes some skill and money, and an ability to assess what will work in given circumstances.

Indeed.

Mary

On 19 Nov 2006 10:06:30 -0800 someone who may be meow2222@care2.com wrote this:-

I wrote about / explained the money -energy connection in detail just recently, so I dont want to again.

It was unconvincing the last time.
-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In message , Joe Fischer writes

On 19 Nov 2006 01:36:41 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
The solution really needs to focus on renewable energy, and that should help with any global warming problem,

Seems fair.

if there is one.

Seems probable.

But there is likely to be no solution to rising sea level, even without undersea volcanos or mountain building, sediment runoff from the worlds rivers will eventually cause sea level to rise, it is inevitable.

Though presumably geological activity will also provide new land.

In the immediate future, global warming is not the scary thing, volcanic activity on the continent of Antarctica should be the most feared thing by property owners in low lying coastal areas.
And second, maybe volcanic activity in Greenland.

Why these areas as opposed to say Yellowstone ?
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message

What do you mean we don't have roundabouts, of course we do, Shaker Heights, Ohio has one in the square.

A whole ONE???
Golly gosh! >

"John Beardmore" wrote in message

Yes - and there has been some good work done at one of the Glasgow universities, and there is a Nu Aire

The Olde Aire runs through my city!

In message , Mary Fisher writes

Today, with the outside temperature at 6C (and overcast sky) we had water at 25C. That's not hot enough for Spouse's washing up or my baths but it's fine for hand washing and it means that the boiler won't need to be on as long to raise the water temperature to his acceptable level.
So, considering it's not really cold and your system's struggling

not really very good then
-- geoff

In message , meow2222@care2.com writes

John Beardmore wrote:
I'd say space heating is much more the way to go than hw.

Yet virtually all installers and purchasers disagree.
Don't you think there might be a reason for that ?

It is important to work on these problems without getting too concerned about the pace things are moving, the majority of people simply do not have the money to do much of anything, and if it costs money to save money, they don't have the money unless they are in a position to borrow the money.
Yes, thats a common problem. Reality is there are very cheap ways to do things when needed. At one house I saw cardboard cavities on solid walls, that can be done for peanuts. Borax fire retardant �1, knife �1, wallpaper glue �1.
Yes - but I'm not sure that such insulation will last too long ?
Many decades, though probably not a century. I've unearthed card boxes from the 1940s before and they were still strong enough to not have collapsed in such a situation. Including some bicarb in the fire retardant neutralises free acid and makes them last longer.

I was thinking more in terms of condensation behind the card being a problem. If you can keep it pretty dry, then yes it should last a good long time, but what chance using it to insulate solid walls with penetrating damp ?

Plastic film secondary glazing is fairly cheap, though reuse of old glass is a much better bet.
But needs some sort of frame making.
No, frames just look nicer.

Something has to seal the edge. What do you have in mind ?

Basic plastic framing glass is also very simple and cheap.

Not quite sure what you mean by this ?
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

Given that the only realistic saving is in hot water (an optimistic 70%), not house heating (when it's REALLY required)

I wonder what is thought of as REALLY required.
Our thermostat is set at 10C - that is, the thermostat is wound to its lowest setting. When it comes on in the night, as it did last night when we had a frost, it's too hot for us.

or cooking

Cooking with fuel economy demands intelligence and planning. Strangely enough I was taught that in school in the very early 1950s. It works. Mary

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:44:52 +0000 someone who may be John Beardmore wrote this:-

I don't see what my folks signed for as being economically viable
No, but I think our clients divide into at least four categories.
People that want to save the world.
Well, they really aren't going to, are they
They've been taken in by the con
They certainly aren't going to save it single handed, and no doubt they appreciate that,

Agreed. It is mildly amusing that the antis are unable or unwilling to accept this and move on. Many great changes have started off as individuals and small groups doing things for themselves, despite being told that they were wasting their time. The largest empire in the world was humbled by just such an initiative.

but they'd rather move towards solving the problem, than gratuitously make it worse.

Indeed.
-- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In message , meow2222@care2.com writes

John Beardmore wrote: In message , meow2222@care2.com writes
FWIW its quite possible to use a controller that detects leaks and shuts off one section of a parallelled system. This would improve reliability, reduce ongoing costs, and extend system lifetimes. But this is only going to be cost effective when the equipment reaches mass production.
Probably better to make kit that won't leak in the first place ?
There is no such thing as kit that can never leak.

No, but as the probability of its leaking is reduced, so is the benefit of safety devices to control leaks.
Which is the better engineering strategy -
making a thing with a minute chance of leaking
or
adding more components (some of which might leak) to control any leaks that might occur ?

And youre making an assumption there, sometimes it is better to use cheaper materials and work around their shortcomings.

I am happy to in this case. Solar panels seldom leak unless provoked.
None of ours have anyway.

3rdly payback depends on system lifetime.

Yes - so ?

And 4thly, hot air panels avoid all these problems in the first place.

Though meet a totally different need.
Your thesis was:
"FWIW its quite possible to use a controller that detects leaks and shuts off one section of a parallelled system.
This would improve reliability, reduce ongoing costs, and extend system lifetimes".
It was this I was commenting on, but it seems to me that it would
require a leak detector (what kind ?),
and
some kind of servo operated valve which has to still operate after decades of on operation (without adding to the chance of the system leaking from the valve itself).
And all this without adding significantly to the cost !
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

On 19 Nov 2006 meow2222@care2.com wrote:

Yes, thats a common problem. Reality is there are very cheap ways to do things when needed. At one house I saw cardboard cavities on solid walls, that can be done for peanuts. Borax fire retardant £1, knife £1, wallpaper glue £1. Plastic film secondary glazing is fairly cheap, though reuse of old glass is a much better bet. Poverty equals lack of time for such extras, but when theres savings to be had, some will do it, once they know it can be done. NT

I have lots of old glass, but I just put a second glaze of 4 mm acrylic on my window, more to prevent fogging from my humidifier than to save energy.
I don't know what the cardboard looks like, I would like to have some lightweight "boxes" to attach to my ceiling, mostly to reduce air volume, too bad the aerogel insulation is so expensive.
Part of my house has a 1:8 slope roof, and it has always had roll roofing on it, but I don't like the nailed edges with tar over the nails, so I am trying just an 18 inch overlap with the ends rolled down and nailed under the ends, it looks something like Asian roofs, but it should hold against wind better, and is easily renewable of any part.
I like the idea of roof panels designed with thermal panels or PV built in, but in my area there is not much of that kind of thing offered, maybe in the sunbelt they are.
I wanted to buy small heat pumps, and saw they are available in the UK, but couldn't find any here, not much offered for either hot water or space heating.
In the summer, I hear a lot of A/Cs running, I can't imagine what it would be like if everybody had heat pumps running in winter. But there are lots of days here when a heat pump is worthless, at about 10 or 15 degrees F, they don't do much.
I would really like to build a combination ICE running on ethanol, driving a generator and a heat pump, and using the waste heat to run a still, and use the waste heat from the still to help heat the house. But I have too many projects now.
Joe Fischer

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:55:25 -0500, Joe Fischer wrote:

And I am not convinced there is a problem, about the only pollution that may spread outside North America is from forest fires.

How long have you had this crack habit?

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