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major problems of surviving peak oil

Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Interesting and scary scenario,
regards tallex

Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil

By Norman
18 October, 2006 http://www.countercurrents.org/po-norman181006.htm
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
Rob Hopkins says in 'Why the Survivalists Have Got It Wrong' that he has very little time for the survivalist response to peak oil, and refers to 'Preparing for a Crash: Nuts and Bolts' by Zachary Nowak.
Rob may well be partially right but he, like Zachary Nowak and many other 'community' minded people tend to miss or are just in denial with the true reality of what the effects of Peak Oil will really mean.
REPLACEMENT TECHNOLOGY
One of the words that seem to go with 'community' is 'renewable'. These words seem to go hand in hand, so let us take a look at them starting with 'renewable energy'.
There are many fascinating and exciting renewable energy developments from wind turbines, solar energy and biomass etc. These are all important energy sources for the future and they could help keep the electricity grid going to some degree!
The popular assumption is that these renewable energy sources will smoothly replace fossil fuels as these become scarce, thanks to our inherited technological expertise. However, although these all produce electricity they are not liquid fuels.
On top of this we must remember that the energy budget must always be positive and output must exceed input. Too much tends to be expected of renewable energy generators today, because the contribution of fossil fuels to the input side is poorly understood.
For example, a wind turbine is not successful as a renewable generator unless another similar one can be constructed from its raw materials using only the energy that the first one generates in its lifetime, and still show a worthwhile budget surplus.
Or, if corn is grown to produce bioethanol, the energy input to ploughing, sowing, fertilizing, weeding, harvesting and processing the crop must come from the previous year's bioethanol production. Input must also include, proportionately, mining and processing the raw materials and building the machines that do the work, as well as supporting their human operators.
There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need.
SO WHAT ABOUT 'COMMUNITY'.
In Powerdown, Richard Heinberg states, "Those who already enjoy a measure of self-sufficiency, such as ecovillages and other kinds of sustainable intentional communities will already have some of the skills and experience needed for re-localization."
He also goes on to say that, self-sustaining communities may become cultural lifeboats in times to come and that "Our society is going to change profoundly-those of us who understand this are in a position to steward that change. We are going to become popular, needed people in our communities."
Now this may be true but no matter how prepared an intentional community or organized neighbourhood may be, it will still be adversely impacted in some way. The changes that are about to effect the world will also affect these communities.
Experts suggest several possible scenarios for the coming energy decline and any of these scenarios will present significant challenges for intentional communities.
Even in the "soft landing" scenario, there will still be massive structural changes in society and being in debt may be the undoing of many. Common advice among many Peak Oil experts is to get out of debt!
Let's say for example, that a community is deeply in debt, and is still paying off its property purchase loans.
Let's say the community loses its financial resource base -if members lose their jobs or if a weak economy reduces the market for the goods and services the community produces -the group could default on its loan payments, and may have its property seized by the bank or other creditors.
A property-value crash may worsen the debt situation for intentional communities. If a community's property value falls below their equity in the property, they won't be able to save themselves from defaulting on loans by selling off their land, which is typically the last resort of farmers in debt.
All the shortages and systems failures that can affect mainstream culture can affect intentional communities as well.
A community may not have enough foresight, labour, tools, or funds to create alternatives to whatever their members use now for heating, lighting, cooking, refrigeration, water collection, water pumping, and disposal utilization of gray water and human waste.
Then there's the matter of community security-a subject many find "politically incorrect" to even consider. If the government fails; if the law and order system falls apart, there can be various kinds of dangerous consequences. Desperate, hungry people can loot and steal and take what they want from others.
So we can see that although 'communities' are all very nice, and lets be honest, if everybody was a nice, honest, law abiding, thoughtful and loving citizens then 'community' would stand a chance. But we are not, we are generally self centred, selfish and only interested in self preservation, so 'communities' are going to be just as susceptible to the same problems others will have during the collapse.
They are also very likely to become the focal point for those who have got nothing or have done nothing and this is when those dangerous consequences may happen.
How reasonable do you think people are going to be when their children are dying of dehydration, they can't take a bath, they can't cook a hot meal? With our interdependent society once the power (electric) goes then other services like water and sewage will be close behind.
Most people have never had to cope with sustained, substantial levels of fear, either in themselves or in others in close proximity. I will say I believe you should be prepared to see and deal with behaviour you would never have believed possible from civilized humans. The reason you should avoid crowds has to do with the fact that individual frustration is one thing, but the frustration of many people feeds individual frustration and fear, which, of course, feeds the frustration of the crowd.
The cycle will feed itself until either the root source of frustration is relieved or there is a catastrophic event, such as a riot or even worse.


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major problems of surviving peak oil

tallex wrote: ....

There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need. ....

I would like proof of this negative statement. :)
Anthony

major problems of surviving peak oil

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:17:47 -0700, Anthony Matonak wrote:

tallex wrote: ... There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need. ... I would like proof of this negative statement. :)
Anthony

Its not possible to prove negatives. A bit like saying I want proof that god doesnt exist.

major problems of surviving peak oil

Mauried wrote:

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:17:47 -0700, Anthony Matonak wrote: tallex wrote:
There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need.
I would like proof of this negative statement. :)
Its not possible to prove negatives.

This tallex fellow seems quite positive in his negativity. Why shouldn't this poster be able to back up the claim?
Of course, they might be mistaken. :)
Anthony

major problems of surviving peak oil

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:51:01 -0700, Anthony Matonak wrote:

Mauried wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:17:47 -0700, Anthony Matonak wrote: tallex wrote:
There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need.
I would like proof of this negative statement. :)
Its not possible to prove negatives.
This tallex fellow seems quite positive in his negativity. Why shouldn't this poster be able to back up the claim?
Of course, they might be mistaken. :)
Anthony

Hes partially right. Currently at least there isnt anything that can replace oil based fuels that has same or better energy density / weight, and Im unaware of anyone who advocates that there is something around the corner. Some of the major industries of the world like trucking and aviation need hi energy density fuels . Whilst there are lots of solutions for renewable energy , its all either more expensive or lower energy density.
Oil isnt going to run out in just one day , such that it will be here one day and gone the next, it will gradually become harder to find which will raise the price. Ultimately , the market will decide what fuels are best. Currently oil is much more expensive than electricity but ppl are still buying ICE cars . Oil has been more expensive than electricity for at least 30 years but the market hasnt changed to electric based transportation. In Australia where I live in the last 20 years or so , a lot of the railways which used to be electrified have torn down the overhead wires and replaced the trains with diesels, simply because although electricity might be cheaper, the distribution and maintenance costs outwieighed its benefits.
In China alone based on current trends there will be 60 million more ICE cars on the roads in the next 10 years,and most of them will be powered on synthetic oil derived from coal.

major problems of surviving peak oil

tallex wrote:

Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Interesting and scary scenario,
regards tallex

Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil

By Norman
18 October, 2006 http://www.countercurrents.org/po-norman181006.htm
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
Rob Hopkins says in 'Why the Survivalists Have Got It Wrong' that he has very little time for the survivalist response to peak oil, and refers to 'Preparing for a Crash: Nuts and Bolts' by Zachary Nowak.
Rob may well be partially right but he, like Zachary Nowak and many other 'community' minded people tend to miss or are just in denial with the true reality of what the effects of Peak Oil will really mean.
REPLACEMENT TECHNOLOGY
One of the words that seem to go with 'community' is 'renewable'. These words seem to go hand in hand, so let us take a look at them starting with 'renewable energy'.
There are many fascinating and exciting renewable energy developments from wind turbines, solar energy and biomass etc. These are all important energy sources for the future and they could help keep the electricity grid going to some degree!
The popular assumption is that these renewable energy sources will smoothly replace fossil fuels as these become scarce, thanks to our inherited technological expertise. However, although these all produce electricity they are not liquid fuels.
On top of this we must remember that the energy budget must always be positive and output must exceed input. Too much tends to be expected of renewable energy generators today, because the contribution of fossil fuels to the input side is poorly understood.
For example, a wind turbine is not successful as a renewable generator unless another similar one can be constructed from its raw materials using only the energy that the first one generates in its lifetime, and still show a worthwhile budget surplus.
Or, if corn is grown to produce bioethanol, the energy input to ploughing, sowing, fertilizing, weeding, harvesting and processing the crop must come from the previous year's bioethanol production. Input must also include, proportionately, mining and processing the raw materials and building the machines that do the work, as well as supporting their human operators.
There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need.
SO WHAT ABOUT 'COMMUNITY'.
In Powerdown, Richard Heinberg states, "Those who already enjoy a measure of self-sufficiency, such as ecovillages and other kinds of sustainable intentional communities will already have some of the skills and experience needed for re-localization."
He also goes on to say that, self-sustaining communities may become cultural lifeboats in times to come and that "Our society is going to change profoundly-those of us who understand this are in a position to steward that change. We are going to become popular, needed people in our communities."
Now this may be true but no matter how prepared an intentional community or organized neighbourhood may be, it will still be adversely impacted in some way. The changes that are about to effect the world will also affect these communities.
Experts suggest several possible scenarios for the coming energy decline and any of these scenarios will present significant challenges for intentional communities.
Even in the "soft landing" scenario, there will still be massive structural changes in society and being in debt may be the undoing of many. Common advice among many Peak Oil experts is to get out of debt!
Let's say for example, that a community is deeply in debt, and is still paying off its property purchase loans.
Let's say the community loses its financial resource base -if members lose their jobs or if a weak economy reduces the market for the goods and services the community produces -the group could default on its loan payments, and may have its property seized by the bank or other creditors.
A property-value crash may worsen the debt situation for intentional communities. If a community's property value falls below their equity in the property, they won't be able to save themselves from defaulting on loans by selling off their land, which is typically the last resort of farmers in debt.
All the shortages and systems failures that can affect mainstream culture can affect intentional communities as well.
A community may not have enough foresight, labour, tools, or funds to create alternatives to whatever their members use now for heating, lighting, cooking, refrigeration, water collection, water pumping, and disposal utilization of gray water and human waste.
Then there's the matter of community security-a subject many find "politically incorrect" to even consider. If the government fails; if the law and order system falls apart, there can be various kinds of dangerous consequences. Desperate, hungry people can loot and steal and take what they want from others.
So we can see that although 'communities' are all very nice, and lets be honest, if everybody was a nice, honest, law abiding, thoughtful and loving citizens then 'community' would stand a chance. But we are not, we are generally self centred, selfish and only interested in self preservation, so 'communities' are going to be just as susceptible to the same problems others will have during the collapse.
They are also very likely to become the focal point for those who have got nothing or have done nothing and this is when those dangerous consequences may happen.
How reasonable do you think people are going to be when their children are dying of dehydration, they can't take a bath, they can't cook a hot meal? With our interdependent society once the power (electric) goes then other services like water and sewage will be close behind.
Most people have never had to cope with sustained, substantial levels of fear, either in themselves or in others in close proximity. I will say I believe you should be prepared to see and deal with behaviour you would never have believed possible from civilized humans. The reason you should avoid crowds has to do with the fact that individual frustration is one thing, but the frustration of many people feeds individual frustration and fear, which, of course, feeds the frustration of the crowd.
The cycle will feed itself until either the root source of frustration is relieved or there is a catastrophic event, such as a riot or even worse.


Get your daily alternative energy news
Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily
http://www.alternate-energy.net



Next Generation Grid http://groups.google.com/group/next_generation_grid/

SPOKANE, Wash., Oct. 20 (UPI) -- A University of Washington economic geologist says there is lots of crude oil left for human use.
Eric Cheney said Friday in a news release that changing economics, technological advances and efforts such as recycling and substitution make the world's mineral resources virtually infinite.
For instance, oil deposits unreachable 40 years ago can be tapped using improved technology, and oil once too costly to extract from tar sands, organic matter or coal is now worth manufacturing. Though some resources might be costlier now, they still are needed.
"The most common question I get is, 'When are we going to run out of oil?' The correct response is, 'Never,'" said Cheney. "It might be a heck of a lot more expensive than it is now, but there will always be some oil available at a price, perhaps $10 to $100 a gallon."
Cheney also said that gasoline prices today, adjusted for inflation, are about what they were in the early part of the last century. Current prices seem inordinately high, he said, because crude oil was at an extremely low price, $10 a barrel, eight years ago and now fetches around $58 a barrel.


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