@nick, where the hydrogen is coming from:

Hydrogen Fueling Station and Vehicle Demonstration Programs Map http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html

lkgeo1 wrote:

Hydrogen Fueling Station and Vehicle Demonstration Programs Map http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html

So where does the hydrogen *come from* ????
Graham

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:31:20 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

lkgeo1 wrote:
Hydrogen Fueling Station and Vehicle Demonstration Programs Map http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html
So where does the hydrogen *come from* ????
Graham

This lkego1 dude reminds me of a 4-year old.."Where does water come from,son?". "From the faucet,daddy".

Steve Cothran wrote:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:31:20 +0100, Eeyore wrote: lkgeo1 wrote:
Hydrogen Fueling Station and Vehicle Demonstration Programs Map http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html
So where does the hydrogen *come from* ????
Graham
This lkego1 dude reminds me of a 4-year old.."Where does water come from,son?". "From the faucet,daddy".

And ppl actually fall for it every time too !
Most ppl don't want to hear about problems, difficulties and technical issues. They want to hear a snake-oil salesman say in a nice smoothing voice " It'll all be just fine....... Now sign on the botted line.".
Graham

European Vehicle Manufacturers & Energy Companies Announce Joint H2 Plans
BRUSSELS, September 30 - The day before the opening of the Paris Motor Show, six European car and truck manufacturers and two energy companies declared their intent to cooperate in efforts to advance hydrogen as a transportation fuel.
In a joint position paper released yesterday, energy companies Shell Hydrogen B.V. and Total France together with vehicle manufacturers BMW Group, DaimlerChrysler AG, Ford Motor Company, General Motors Europe AG, MAN Nutzfahrzeuge AG and Volkswagen AG said in a press release issued here they believed "that now is the time to move forward."
They said their common position paper defines "a near and mid term action plan to pave the way for the introduction of hydrogen-based mobility in Europe." They added they are "convinced that a joint approach between energy companies and vehicle manufacturers is an excellent means to bridge the gap between the present individual demonstration activities and future commercially available hydrogen vehicles, including the corresponding refueling infrastructure.
"While each company is pursuing its own specific timelines, the group has commonly identified key phases over the next decade, comprising continuous technology development and cost reduction, pre-commercial technology refinement and market preparation, with commercialisation of hydrogen powered vehicles potentially starting around 2015," according to the release.
(A longer story will appear in the upcoming October online and print editions of "The Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Letter.")
Eeyore wrote:

Steve Cothran wrote:
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:31:20 +0100, Eeyore wrote: lkgeo1 wrote:
Hydrogen Fueling Station and Vehicle Demonstration Programs Map http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html
So where does the hydrogen *come from* ????
Graham
This lkego1 dude reminds me of a 4-year old.."Where does water come from,son?". "From the faucet,daddy".
And ppl actually fall for it every time too !
Most ppl don't want to hear about problems, difficulties and technical issues. They want to hear a snake-oil salesman say in a nice smoothing voice " It'll all be just fine....... Now sign on the botted line.".
Graham

lkgeo1 wrote:

European Vehicle Manufacturers & Energy Companies Announce Joint H2 Plans
BRUSSELS, September 30 - The day before the opening of the Paris Motor Show, six European car and truck manufacturers and two energy companies declared their intent to cooperate in efforts to advance hydrogen as a transportation fuel.

They're well screwed then ! No-one will buy a vehicle that costs 5x as much to run ever.
Graham

PLUG POWER ANNOUNCES NEW AGREEMENTS WITH HONDA FOR NEXT PHASE OF HOME ENERGY STATION AND R&D COLLABORATION Plug Power Achieves 2006 Public Milestone
LATHAM, N.Y. - March 16, 2006 - Plug Power Inc. (NASDAQ: PLUG), a leader in providing clean, reliable on-site energy, today announced two new agreements with Honda R&D Company, Ltd. of Japan to continue expanding the companies' collaborative efforts.
The first of the new agreements covers the fourth consecutive phase of joint development of the Home Energy Station. The Home Energy Station is a fuel cell system that provides electricity and heat to a home or business, while also providing hydrogen fuel for a fuel cell vehicle. The companies completed the previous phase in November 2005 with the successful commissioning of the third-generation Home Energy Station at Honda R&D Americas' facility in Torrance, Calif. This third-generation system is 30 percent smaller in size than its predecessor, with 25 percent more power output, more hydrogen storage capacity, higher efficiency and significantly faster startup time. The continued phase-over-phase improvement trend is expected to continue with Phase 4. Under this new agreement, Honda R&D will continue to fund Plug Power's work on the Home Energy Station.
The second new agreement is focused on fundamental research and development work that Plug Power is conducting under funding from Honda. This agreement is focused on the advancement of technology for future Home Energy Stations, as well as more generalized applications, which are expected to benefit other Plug Power products. The system is expected to be more environmentally friendly than traditional energy devices due to its higher efficiency and lower emissions.
"We are excited to announce the completion of these contracts and the achievement of our public milestone related to our continuing relationship with Honda," said Mark Sperry, Plug Power Chief Marketing Officer. "We are honored to be working with Honda on such important initiatives and look forward to the benefits of our ongoing and growing collaboration."
A model of the Home Energy Station was on display in Honda's booth this week at the National Hydrogen Association Annual Hydrogen Conference in Long Beach, Calif. http://www.plugpower.com/news/details.cfm?prid=285
Eeyore wrote:

lkgeo1 wrote:
European Vehicle Manufacturers & Energy Companies Announce Joint H2 Plans
BRUSSELS, September 30 - The day before the opening of the Paris Motor Show, six European car and truck manufacturers and two energy companies declared their intent to cooperate in efforts to advance hydrogen as a transportation fuel.
They're well screwed then ! No-one will buy a vehicle that costs 5x as much to run ever.
Graham

lkgeo1 wrote:

PLUG POWER ANNOUNCES NEW AGREEMENTS WITH HONDA FOR NEXT PHASE OF HOME ENERGY STATION AND R&D COLLABORATION Plug Power Achieves 2006 Public Milestone

Where does the hydrogen *come from* ??
Graham

Iran backs OPEC moves to bolster oil prices ABS CBN News - 3 hours ago TEHRAN - Iran said Sunday it will support any OPEC moves to "solidify" the oil market and bolster plunging crude prices amid unilateral cuts by members and calls for an output quota reduction by the cartel. Iran says backs OPEC push for "acceptable" oil price Reuters Venezuela makes small cut in oil output BusinessWeek Eeyore wrote:

lkgeo1 wrote:
PLUG POWER ANNOUNCES NEW AGREEMENTS WITH HONDA FOR NEXT PHASE OF HOME ENERGY STATION AND R&D COLLABORATION Plug Power Achieves 2006 Public Milestone
Where does the hydrogen *come from* ??
Graham

On 1 Oct 2006 05:49:10 -0700, "lkgeo1" wrote:

Iran backs OPEC moves to bolster oil prices ABS CBN News - 3 hours ago

Here, dude. You're so fond of stories, read this one from a chemistry prof, who btw is a big fan of hydrogen.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html
Then you might get a clue *where the hydrogen comes from*.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:02:03 -0700, Steve Cothran wrote:

Here, dude. You're so fond of stories, read this one from a chemistry prof, who btw is a big fan of hydrogen.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html
Thanks Steve; quite a good article about hydrogen.

But it clearly makes the point that hydrogen is NOT an energy source; merely a medium for conveying energy. I think Nick's point is really "where is the energy going to come from to manufacture the hydrogen" (by whatever means).
If anything, the article convinced me absolutely that hydrogen as an energy medium is NOT the way ahead (and as a "homepower" group, I doubt that many homeowners have the technology to seriously play with it anyway)
In the end, I think what we should be discussing firstly is not the "medium" but the "source" of energy - though at the end of the day, the medium will be what the user sees.
Eric Sears

Eric Sears wrote:

On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:02:03 -0700, Steve Cothran <fake@fake.com wrote:
Here, dude. You're so fond of stories, read this one from a chemistry prof, who btw is a big fan of hydrogen.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html
Thanks Steve; quite a good article about hydrogen. But it clearly makes the point that hydrogen is NOT an energy source; merely a medium for conveying energy.

And a quite poor one at that too !
I just read on my travels that a typical hydrogen vehicle loses ~1.5% of the hydrogen every day - presumably from various issues related to its containment.

I think Nick's point is really "where is the energy going to come from to manufacture the hydrogen" (by whatever means).

Which will be fossil fuel most likely currently. Making H2 also makes CO2 btw !
Graham

Eeyore wrote:

Making H2 also makes CO2 btw !

McCarthy seems to like the nuclear option.
His 1.7% daily loss from liquid H2 is interesting. That would depend on tank insulation, no? A LH2 tank might have vacuum aerogel insulation with US R40 per inch. If it has headspace and it can be slightly pressurized, it might not lose any hydrogen overnight.
Nick

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Making H2 also makes CO2 btw !
McCarthy seems to like the nuclear option.
His 1.7% daily loss from liquid H2 is interesting. That would depend on tank insulation, no?

Mainly AIUI. Also since H2 has a tiny molecule it can simply pass through many substances.

A LH2 tank might have vacuum aerogel insulation with US R40 per inch. If it has headspace and it can be slightly pressurized, it might not lose any hydrogen overnight.

How ? Extra insulation will only *reduce* losses. It can't *stop* them.
Graham

Eeyore wrote:

His 1.7% daily loss from liquid H2 is interesting. That would depend on tank insulation, no?
Mainly AIUI.

What's AIUI?

Also since H2 has a tiny molecule it can simply pass through many substances.

We need to pick the right substances...

A LH2 tank might have vacuum aerogel insulation with US R40 per inch. If it has headspace and it can be slightly pressurized, it might not lose any hydrogen overnight.
How ? Extra insulation will only *reduce* losses. It can't *stop* them.

The insulation would slow the boiling rate so the headspace takes longer to come to the tank pressure limit. The tank pressure would be relieved when the car is driven the next day. If a 1 ft^3 cubical tank with 2" of aerogel gains (100-(-433))6ft^2/R80 = 40 Btu/h, ie 42 kJ/h, and 0.904 kJ evaporates 1 mole (2 grams) of H2, which expands 840X at 1 atmosphere...
Nick