Just testing an E-Max S scooter

I have from Friday to Monady morning an E-Max S electric scooter for testing.
Acording to EU regulations, a driving license free scooter is limited to 45 km/h
After 62 km driving around, the scooter is now recharging in my cellar.
The E-Max S is in Germany 2300.-EUR
The little bit weakter E-Max 1700.-EUR
Unitl now, I heared 3..4 kWh for 100km, in some hours, I will read the real usage from the Watt meter.
In common, compared to a 2 stroke engine scooter, 1 kWh electric power instead of 1 litre gasoline.
More soon....
-- Roland M�sl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org

Roland M�sl schrieb:

I have from Friday to Monady morning an E-Max S electric scooter for testing.
Acording to EU regulations, a driving license free scooter is limited to 45 km/h
After 62 km driving around, the scooter is now recharging in my cellar.
The E-Max S is in Germany 2300.-EUR
The little bit weakter E-Max 1700.-EUR
Unitl now, I heared 3..4 kWh for 100km, in some hours, I will read the real usage from the Watt meter.
In common, compared to a 2 stroke engine scooter, 1 kWh electric power instead of 1 litre gasoline.

and 3kWh of oil if you account for the energy conversion in the power station ....
G.fried
PS: what is the most motorized electric two wheeeler commercially available?

On Sat, "G.fried" wrote:

Roland Mösl schrieb: I have from Friday to Monady morning an E-Max S electric scooter for testing. [snip] In common, compared to a 2 stroke engine scooter, 1 kWh electric power instead of 1 litre gasoline.
and 3kWh of oil if you account for the energy conversion in the power station .... G.fried

And 1 litre of gasoline is more than 40,000 BTU, or more than 10KWH (and more than $2 in Europe compared to an average of 10 cents for the 1 KWH charge).
The only advantages a petrol scooter has is range and maybe price, and they are not suitable for freeways anyway.
Joe Fischer

G.fried wrote:

PS: what is the most motorized electric two wheeeler commercially available?

Well, if you can define what you mean by "most motorized," I can probably give you an answer. Fastest? Longest range? ?????
If you can tell me what your needs are, where you live, and what licensing requirements you can live with, I can make some recommendations based on my experience and the experience of people I know.
Currently, the practical everyday usage range of most of them is around 10-25 miles, but you can get speeds from 15 to 45 miles per hour, and some have add-on battery packs that will get you more miles.

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:

G.fried wrote:
PS: what is the most motorized electric two wheeeler commercially available?
Currently, the practical everyday usage range of most of them is around 10-25 miles, but you can get speeds from 15 to 45 miles per hour, and some have add-on battery packs that will get you more miles.

I noticed this while looking at motorized bicycles. The electric systems are seen as "more convenient" but then,,, the most common question that owners ask is "how to get more power and range out of them". People ask this about the cheap $300 department-store bikes, as well as the high-end $1500 systems. And nearly all of these are really only "assists", that don't have enough power to move the bicycle very far or fast on their own.
The people using gasoline engines /almost never/ ask how to get more power. ----- People also tend to think that electrics automatically pollute less, which may not be true. In terms of total cost-per-mile, cradle-to-grave, it's very debatable which one would pollute (or cost) less, especially when you consider how much weaker the electric systems are. ~

DougC wrote:

I noticed this while looking at motorized bicycles. The electric systems are seen as "more convenient" but then,,, the most common question that owners ask is "how to get more power and range out of them". People ask this about the cheap $300 department-store bikes, as well as the high-end $1500 systems. And nearly all of these are really only "assists", that don't have enough power to move the bicycle very far or fast on their own.

Well, you have speed, range, cost, and weight. You can probably have any three out of the four. There is emerging battery technology that is lightweight and will give you more range or speed for the weight, but at a cost that most people with today's prevalent Walmart mindset won't accept.
A motorized bicycle is not designed to be powered solely by energy. For power-only propulsion without any human effort involved, you have to look at either powerboard types of vehicles (Goped, BladeZ, etc.) or moped types of vehicles (eGO, Oxygen, Emax, EVT-168, Vectrix, etc.).
Making the best use of an electric two-wheeler involves planning, due to the charge time involved. Of course, if you have a removable battery pack (as a number of e-bicycles do), you can purchase an extra pack and always keep one charging.
I am not an expert on this by any means, You can read up at www.electric-bikes.com or www.visforvoltage.com/forums and find people with more knowledge off the top of their head than I have. I just thoroughly enjoy my electrically-powered transportation and see it as one transportation option out of several that I have available to use, but with the community I live in, it is not feasible to use it as my sole means of transportation. If people would stop holding the junk electric powerboards as the gold standard of price and would look at some that would cost twice as much but last five times longer, then the manufacturers of quality products would stand a chance of developing long enough production runs to make them more affordable and be able to work on developing battery technology more.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:23:04 -0700, Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:

DougC wrote:
I noticed this while looking at motorized bicycles. The electric systems are seen as "more convenient" but then,,, the most common question that owners ask is "how to get more power and range out of them". People ask this about the cheap $300 department-store bikes, as well as the high-end $1500 systems. And nearly all of these are really only "assists", that don't have enough power to move the bicycle very far or fast on their own.
Well, you have speed, range, cost, and weight. You can probably have any three out of the four. There is emerging battery technology that is lightweight and will give you more range or speed for the weight, but at a cost that most people with today's prevalent Walmart mindset won't accept.
A motorized bicycle is not designed to be powered solely by energy. For power-only propulsion without any human effort involved, you have to look at either powerboard types of vehicles (Goped, BladeZ, etc.) or moped types of vehicles (eGO, Oxygen, Emax, EVT-168, Vectrix, etc.).
Making the best use of an electric two-wheeler involves planning, due to the charge time involved. Of course, if you have a removable battery pack (as a number of e-bicycles do), you can purchase an extra pack and always keep one charging.
I am not an expert on this by any means, You can read up at www.electric-bikes.com or www.visforvoltage.com/forums and find people with more knowledge off the top of their head than I have. I just thoroughly enjoy my electrically-powered transportation and see it as one transportation option out of several that I have available to use, but with the community I live in, it is not feasible to use it as my sole means of transportation. If people would stop holding the junk electric powerboards as the gold standard of price and would look at some that would cost twice as much but last five times longer, then the manufacturers of quality products would stand a chance of developing long enough production runs to make them more affordable and be able to work on developing battery technology more.

The real problem with electric scooters , and even electric cars for that matter is trying to convince the average potential buyer that they should accept a huge range reduction / performance reduction for slightly less running costs , than they would if they bought a conventiional gasoline powered scooter or car.
In the case of the E-max scooter , its not a bad bike, but the top speed is too slow to make it attractive to would be scooters buyers and the range is too low . You could improve the scooter with Lithium Ion batteries and a bigger electric motor , so the bike would go faster and go further, but then it would be too expensive, and wouldnt sell.
The running costs of scooters , even gasoline powered ones and pretty low , and an electric scooter is going to have to at least have similar performance to conventional ones if its going to sell.

Currently, the practical everyday usage range of most of them is around 10-25 miles, but you can get speeds from 15 to 45 miles per hour, and some have add-on battery packs that will get you more miles.
I noticed this while looking at motorized bicycles. The electric systems are seen as "more convenient" but then,,, the most common question that owners ask is "how to get more power and range out of them". People ask this about the cheap $300 department-store bikes, as well as the high-end $1500 systems. And nearly all of these are really only "assists", that don't have enough power to move the bicycle very far or fast on their own.

2,2 kW standard, 3,85 kW with power button
I tested it also 2 times over 600m heigh on mountain streets up to 15% uphill

People also tend to think that electrics automatically pollute less, which may not be true.

At this electric scooter, 1 litre gasoline is exchanged with 1 kWh.
-- Roland M�sl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org

The real problem with electric scooters , and even electric cars for that matter is trying to convince the average potential buyer that they should accept a huge range reduction / performance reduction for slightly less running costs , than they would if they bought a conventiional gasoline powered scooter or car.

Range: Every day in the morning 60km range
Gasoline scooters with a small 6 litres tank make 150km, but You have to visit the gasoline station
Performance: in the driving license free scooter class the same

In the case of the E-max scooter , its not a bad bike, but the top speed is too slow to make it attractive to would be scooters buyers and the range is too low .

The top speed is limited by law to 45 km/h for driving license free scooters in the EU
With a manipultaion on the controller, 65 km/h are possible

You could improve the scooter with Lithium Ion batteries and a bigger electric motor , so the bike would go faster and go further, but then it would be too expensive, and wouldnt sell.
The running costs of scooters , even gasoline powered ones and pretty low

They are higher than of a good car.
4 litre gasoline are in Germany 5.-EUR The 2 stroke engine lubrication 0,80 EUR for 100 km
Makes 5,80 EUR for 100km
With this, somebody can buy 5,3 litre Diesel and operate a real car.
Many small Diesel cars use far less than 5,3 l/100km

, and an electric scooter is going to have to at least have similar performance to conventional ones if its going to sell.

It has similar performance, but much more comfort, because it's so silent
-- Roland M�sl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org

On Wed, Roland Mösl wrote:

At this electric scooter, 1 litre gasoline is exchanged with 1 kWh.

Do you mean one KWH electric is equal to 1 litre gasoline at 20,000 BTU per pound, 1 litre gasoline = about 1.5 pounds?
That would be about 30,000 / 3.5 to convert BTU to watts, with the ICE burning about 9 KWH fuel to equal 1 KWH electric?
Why did they ever put ICE engines in cars? :-)
Joe Fischer

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 13:17:52 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Roland_M=F6sl?= wrote:

The real problem with electric scooters , and even electric cars for that matter is trying to convince the average potential buyer that they should accept a huge range reduction / performance reduction for slightly less running costs , than they would if they bought a conventiional gasoline powered scooter or car.
Range: Every day in the morning 60km range
Gasoline scooters with a small 6 litres tank make 150km, but You have to visit the gasoline station
Performance: in the driving license free scooter class the same
In the case of the E-max scooter , its not a bad bike, but the top speed is too slow to make it attractive to would be scooters buyers and the range is too low .
The top speed is limited by law to 45 km/h for driving license free scooters in the EU
With a manipultaion on the controller, 65 km/h are possible
You could improve the scooter with Lithium Ion batteries and a bigger electric motor , so the bike would go faster and go further, but then it would be too expensive, and wouldnt sell.
The running costs of scooters , even gasoline powered ones and pretty low
They are higher than of a good car.
4 litre gasoline are in Germany 5.-EUR The 2 stroke engine lubrication 0,80 EUR for 100 km
Makes 5,80 EUR for 100km
With this, somebody can buy 5,3 litre Diesel and operate a real car.
Many small Diesel cars use far less than 5,3 l/100km
, and an electric scooter is going to have to at least have similar performance to conventional ones if its going to sell.
It has similar performance, but much more comfort, because it's so silent
-- Roland M�sl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org

You need a better gasoline scooter. I have a Honda NES125 , single cylinder water cooled 4 stroke. Top speed 130 km/h , plenty of acceleration in traffic. Gets 2.5 litres / 100 km . And its also quiet. Scooters are getting a lot better.
Your point about the diesel cars is a good one , as such fuel figures are better than some of the gas powered hybrids.

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 17:29:12 -0400, Joe Fischer wrote:

On Wed, Roland Mösl wrote:
At this electric scooter, 1 litre gasoline is exchanged with 1 kWh.
Do you mean one KWH electric is equal to 1 litre gasoline at 20,000 BTU per pound, 1 litre gasoline = about 1.5 pounds?
That would be about 30,000 / 3.5 to convert BTU to watts, with the ICE burning about 9 KWH fuel to equal 1 KWH electric?
Why did they ever put ICE engines in cars? :-)
Joe Fischer

Ppl get too carried away with efficiency. ICE engines are very inefficient, but they provide a great deal of utility and functionality that cant easily be provided by other means. If efficiency was the only criterion , we would have never had cars , staying with horses and buggies because cars would be too inefficient to use.

At this electric scooter, 1 litre gasoline is exchanged with 1 kWh.
Do you mean one KWH electric is equal to 1 litre gasoline at 20,000 BTU per pound, 1 litre gasoline = about 1.5 pounds?

I mean that the average 2 stroke engine scooter has such a bad efficiency, that he goes with 1 litre gasoline the same distance, an electric scooter goes with 1 kWh.

That would be about 30,000 / 3.5 to convert BTU to watts, with the ICE burning about 9 KWH fuel to equal 1 KWH electric?

Also the electric scooter has by far not 100% efficiency.
I used 2,45 kWh to recharge the not complete empty 40Ah 48V battery.
The controller and the engine have also not 100% efficiency.
So I would quess, from the 2,45 kWh are 1,6 kWh remaining on the rear wheel.

Why did they ever put ICE engines in cars? :-)

Gasoline is so cheap and lead acid batteries so heavy.
The E-Max S has so called Silicon batteries. I think much improved sealed lead acid, but I do not know exactly
http://www.greensavercorp.com/SP2012.htm
The datasheet shows much better high current discharge than normal lead acid batteries
Driving up from 420 to 1000m above sea level and up to 15% uphill, this batteries are against all my experiences with lead acid batteries.
-- Roland Mösl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org

Ppl get too carried away with efficiency. ICE engines are very inefficient, but they provide a great deal of utility and functionality that cant easily be provided by other means. If efficiency was the only criterion , we would have never had cars , staying with horses and buggies because cars would be too inefficient to use.

Wrong, horses have a very high standby energy usage.
In earlier times, 25% of the fields have been for the agricultural engines names horse and bullock.
Using a tractor with vegetable oil, only 10% of the area is used to power the tractor.
With the most modern vegetable to fuel technology, this can be further reduced to 2,5%
So the Diesel engine in a tractor is 10 times more efficient than a horse.
The big difference: the standby energy usage
You drive the tractor in the garage, turn off the engine, no standby energy usage
You ride the horse in the stable, several hundred Watt standby energy
http://car.pege.org/2005-vegetable-oil/sunflower-oil.htm
-- Roland M�sl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:

Well, you have speed, range, cost, and weight. You can probably have any three out of the four. There is emerging battery technology that is lightweight and will give you more range or speed for the weight, but at a cost that most people with today's prevalent Walmart mindset won't accept.
A motorized bicycle is not designed to be powered solely by energy. For power-only propulsion without any human effort involved, you have to look at either powerboard types of vehicles (Goped, BladeZ, etc.) or moped types of vehicles (eGO, Oxygen, Emax, EVT-168, Vectrix, etc.).
Making the best use of an electric two-wheeler involves planning, due to the charge time involved. Of course, if you have a removable battery pack (as a number of e-bicycles do), you can purchase an extra pack and always keep one charging.

When I got interested in bicycle engine kits, I tried to compare the economics (as well as the environmental impact) of all types. I suspected that electrics were NOT as economical as gasoline, just because commercial vehicles still mostly all use gasoline-powered vehicles, all over the world, even in major cities where they cover very-limited areas.
My own web page: http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcimper/assorted/inanities/recumbent/moto_bike_page/episode005/episode005.html
Buy and ride what you like, freedom of choice and all that. But don't feel too righteous about EV's, because they are usually a lot more expensive to operate in the long-term than gasoline-engines are, and probably do more environmental harm as well. ~