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Things to Know About Power Generation Before You Embarrass Y

It has been suggested that there is no such thing as surplus power EVER. That there is no surplus generation power in off-peak times, online available. (You know who you are.)
The concept that Power companies would actually ask people to NOT buy the most expensive power they have at peak times, but buy lower cost electricity from the same company at off peak times, defies logic. Capitalist companies have a duty to the stockholders to maximize profits. Profits are not maximized by charging them less money for the same merchandise at lower prices off-peak. Then the logic must be flawed. There must be some other explanation than that companies are always selling all they make, day and night. Perhaps these links may help you (you know who you are) to understand the situation is not as simple as you would like to believe it is.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13110 .... Contact your utility to see if it offers a demand management program. Some utilities offer "time of use" electricity rates that vary according to the demand on their system. They charge higher rates during "on-peak"< times and lower rates during "off-peak" times. Some even offer incentives to customers who allow them to install control devices that shut off electric water heaters during peak demand periods. These control devices may use radio signals that allow a utility to shut off a water heater remotely anytime demand is high. Shut-off periods are generally brief so customers experience no reduction in service. ...
http://home.howstuffworks.com/question305.htm How does a time-of-use program with the power company work?
Most power companies offer a time-of-use program of some sort. In Raleigh, NC, the power company is called Carolina Power and Light (CP&L), and they offer a time-of-use program that makes a good example (even though every program is different).
Most people pay a flat rate for their power. For example, let's say that CP&L's flat rate is about 7.4 cents per kilowatt-hour. If you use 1,000 kilowatt-hours in a month, you pay $74.00 for the month (plus some taxes).
The idea behind a time-of-use program is to put a special power meter on your house so that the power company can bill you differently depending on the time of day. For CP&L, there are only two different time periods: "on-peak" and "off-peak." In the summer (April through September), the on-peak hours are 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. on weekdays. Nights, weekends and vacations are off-peak. During the winter, the on-peak hours are slightly different (6 a.m. to 1 p.m. and 4 p.m. to 9 p.m. on weekdays).
There are two different programs in the CP&L time-of-use plan. Under the simpler program, you pay:
* $9.85 per month to be a part of the program * 14.5 cents per kilowatt-hour for on-peak power * 2.9 cents per kilowatt-hour for off-peak power
You can see that this approach provides a good incentive to move as much power consumption as possible to off-peak hours. So things like laundry, dish washing, showers, etc. move to off-peak hours (nights and weekends). Moving these things to off-peak is not usually a big inconvenience.
So if you use 1,000 kilowatt-hours in one month, and 333 are on-peak and 667 are off-peak, then the total bill is $64.83, for a savings of $9.17 (12%).
The keys to understanding if this will work for you or not include:
* Knowing your monthly power consumption - If you don't use something like 700 kilowatts or more per month, the $9.85 monthly fee isn't worth it. * Knowing your appliances - An electric dryer and an electric water heater consume large quantities of power that you can easily shift to off-peak. A refrigerator, on the other hand, is difficult to shift. * Knowing your tolerance for inconvenience - If it would bug you to death to wait until 9 p.m. to do a load of laundry, or if turning the air conditioner off in the middle of the day would bother you, then time-of-use is not for you.
So what does the power company get out of this? Why would they want to charge you less for electricity? It turns out that the power company has a problem -- it cannot store power. During hot summer days when everyone has their air conditioner on, there is a huge load on the power company. The power company has to build enough power plants to meet that peak load. At other times of the day and at other times of the year, much of that power-generating capacity is not needed. This surplus capacity costs lots of money to build but generates very little income, so the power company wants to even things out. It wants to try to reduce the peaks so it does not have to build extra power plants. It is much cheaper to give people a discount than to build a new plant, so they create a time-of-use program.
These links will help you learn more:
* conEdison: Time-Of-Use Quiz * We Energies: Time-of-Use Rate Plan * Energy-Saving Tips: Time of Use * SDG&E Time-of-Use Metering
http://www.newsdata.com/wps/ Western Price Survey
November 4, 2005 Power Costs Record Continuing Slide
A significant, rapid drop in the cost of natural gas this week translated into a quick tumble in the spot electricity markets as well. Trading hubs throughout the West reported average losses of about 20 mills between the Monday and Tuesday bidding sessions. Prices clawed themselves up by a few mills on Wednesday and Thursday, but another swoon in gas values pushed end-of-week power costs even lower.
The price of peak-time electricity in Northern California's markets, where supply was plentiful and demand low, ranged from a high of 100.25 mills/KWh on Monday to a low of 64 mills/KWh at the end of the week. Off-peak power at the NP15 hub topped out at 76.25 mills/KWh at the beginning of the week before fading to between 53.50 mills and 56 mills/KWh during the Tuesday and Wednesday trading sessions. By the end of the week the spread had widened to between 54.50 mills and 60.50 mills/KWh.
South of Path 15 trading activity did little to distinguish itself from NP15 values. Monday peak-time power costs moved between 89.75 mills and 99.50 mills/KWh. The drop in the price of natural gas drove the price of power down to 68 mills/KWh on Tuesday before a gain of around 10 mills the following day helped to counter the loss. The nadir for the week was hit on Friday, when peak-time power trades were closed for 63.15 mills/KWh. Low-demand power in Southern California's spot market peaked at 76 mills/KWh on Monday, but generally spent the week hovering around the 60 mills/KWh mark.
Northwest peak-time power attracted between 79.50 mills and 81 mills/KWh at the Mid-Columbia hub on Monday. Power scheduled for midweek delivery at Mid-C drew as much as 75.50 mills/KWh. The drop in gas costs dropped the price down to between 56 mills and 65.50 mills/KWh on Friday for next-week deliveries. Trades of nighttime power were made for between 51 mills and 70 mills/KWh in the first half of the week, but stayed mostly in the fifties on Thursday and Friday.
The price of daytime power at the Southwest hub at Palo Verde ranged from a high of 82.50 mills/KWh on Monday to a low of 53.50 mills/KWh recorded in Friday's trading session. Off-peak power at Palo Verde bottomed out at 42 mills/KWh on Tuesday before regaining half a dozen mills in late-week trading.
http://www.snopud.com/energy/home/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/EnergyUse.ashx?p=1915 .... Is there any part of a day or night that is better to run appliances like dishwashers, clothes washers, etc.?
Wholesale power is purchased by the utility based on peak and off-peak times. The peak times (when power is used the most in our region) are from 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. and from 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Those are the times that people are getting ready for work or coming home from work. While the utility does pay a difference for peak versus off-peak wholesale power, it does not bill its customers for peak versus off-peak usage primarily because of the expense involved in being able to bill for this.
Wholesale power purchased for use during these peak periods is the most expensive for the utility. You can help keep costs down by using power in off-peak times. While you aren't billed for peak versus off-peak power usage, using your appliances (dishwasher, clothes washer, dryer, computers, etc.) after 9:00 p.m. helps the PUD save money overall on purchased power costs. The cost difference between peak and off-peak power can range from hundreds to thousands of dollars per megawatt-hour in colder weather. (One megawatt-hour is enough power for about 600 homes.) The colder the weather, the more demand for power during peak times, so power prices rise. This also means greater savings by using off-peak power during this time. So when you use off-peak power, you are helping keep costs down for all PUD customers.
Using off-peak power also benefits the environment. To meet high energy demand, extra power generators are run to produce additional power during peak times. But many of these extra power generators are not very efficient and create some air pollution while generating power. This is why they aren't operated all the time. During off-peak times, these extra power generators are not needed and so air pollution levels are reduced. In addition, the more off-peak power we use, the less peak power is needed, potentially minimizing the need for these extra power generators. ...
http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/92/2/12.html Messenger - Vol. 1, No. 2, Page 8 Winter 1992 Can solar cells solve utilities' peak power problems? Imagine receiving a call from your local power company asking you to let them install the latest power company conservation tool-a solar cell array. Well, you may not have to use your imagination for long. The University of Delaware's Center for Energy and Urban Policy Research has received $96,948 from the U.S. Department of Energy to conduct a 14-month evaluation of existing consumer-based electric utility conservation programs and then create a blueprint for incorporating solar energy into the mix. "We know photovoltaics have potential. We're now trying to identify feasible applications," John Byrne, center director, explains. Center research manager Young-Doo Wang and Bill Baron, deputy director of the University's Institute of Energy Conversion, are working with Byrne on the study. Byrne envisions electric companies installing solar cell panels on homes and commercial buildings primarily to help reduce consumer peak-load demand. The reduction could be large enough to actually offset the need to build new power plants, he says, if solar panels can produce enough energy to heat water, run air conditioners and power lights during these high demand periods. Peak-load demand comes when a utility must use all its power plants to supply customers with the electricity they need, usually in the summer during daylight hours. If utilities can't supply enough electricity or can't afford to build new plants-if supply can't keep up with demand-customers would have to live with brownouts and blackouts. Some power companies have begun offering their customers incentives, such as rate discounts, to allow the company to turn off water heaters and air conditioners during peak-load periods, and rebates to purchase higher efficiency electrical appliances. But, Byrne says, solar cells can reduce peak-load demand more efficiently and with less discomfort and inconvenience to consumers. Water heaters are a good example. "There are at present 1 million water heaters across the nation, which electric companies turn off for eight hours a day during the summer," Byrne says. That saves anywhere from 300-700 watts per heater, thus lowering draw when demand is at its highest. Customers receive an incentive payment and the utility off-loads usage during peak demand, but, customers lose normal hot water service until it's time to turn on the heat. What the energy center study may show, Byrne says, is that solar cells can keep the water sufficiently warm to eliminate the need for the utility to serve the heater during peak-load periods. There would be no need for consumers to suffer hours of lost normal hot water service and no need for the utility to supply electricity to reheat their water. "We already know this has potential, and the Department of Energy expects us to identify other demand-side programs that present options for photovoltaic applications," Byrne says. For example, where utilities have programs that turn air conditioning compressors on and off during peak-load demand, solar panels could reduce the amount of off-time and consumer discomfort. The center and the institute, with the assistance of a Delmarva Power & Light staff member, have already begun compiling data. The grant became active on Oct. 15. Several other utilities are cooperating on the project, including Long Island Lighting, Niagara Mohawk, Public Service of Colorado, Pacific Gas & Electric Co., Arizona Public Service Co., Salt River Project, Florida Power & Light, Central & South West Service Co. and Northern States Power. Even though solar energy is considered more practical in states with less population and more hours of sunlight, the interest shown by Northeastern and Midwestern utilities gives an indication its growing acceptance. Another aspect of the research project is to design pilot programs incorporating solar cells into selected utilities' consumer conservation plans. How well these demonstration projects fare could influence the future of the photovoltaic industry, Byrne says. -Barbara Garrison

Things to Know About Power Generation Before You Embarra

"Science Cop" wrote in message

It has been suggested that there is no such thing as surplus power EVER. That there is no surplus generation power in off-peak times, online available. (You know who you are.)
The concept that Power companies would actually ask people to NOT buy the most expensive power they have at peak times, but buy lower cost electricity from the same company at off peak times, defies logic. Capitalist companies have a duty to the stockholders to maximize profits. Profits are not maximized by charging them less money for the same merchandise at lower prices off-peak. Then the logic must be flawed. There must be some other explanation than that companies are always selling all they make, day and night. Perhaps these links may help you (you know who you are) to understand the situation is not as simple as you would like to believe it is.

You really don't have a clue do you?
Utilities build to meet the peak demand. But that means that there are many times during the night/day that they have equipment that is being under-utilized. Customers don't use the same power level all the time. So the utility could build *bigger* plants to supply increased demand during peak periods and let it idle during not-peak times, or they could offer customers an incentive to use more electricity during non-peak times. Time-of-use metering is just that, an incentive from the utility to try and induce customers to use electricity when some of the utility's equipment would otherwise be idle.
So the simple question is, "Build an extra 1000 MW plant at a cost of $1-$2 B and have it idle 20 hours a day, or provide cheaper power during non-peak times and maximize the use of existing plants at a lower profit margin?" Run the numbers and see how it works out.
daestrom

Things to Know About Power Generation Before You Embarra

daestrom wrote:

"Science Cop" wrote in message
It has been suggested that there is no such thing as surplus power EVER. That there is no surplus generation power in off-peak times, online available. (You know who you are.)
The concept that Power companies would actually ask people to NOT buy the most expensive power they have at peak times, but buy lower cost electricity from the same company at off peak times, defies logic. Capitalist companies have a duty to the stockholders to maximize profits. Profits are not maximized by charging them less money for the same merchandise at lower prices off-peak. Then the logic must be flawed. There must be some other explanation than that companies are always selling all they make, day and night. Perhaps these links may help you (you know who you are) to understand the situation is not as simple as you would like to believe it is.

You really don't have a clue do you?
Utilities build to meet the peak demand. But that means that there are many times during the night/day that they have equipment that is being under-utilized. Customers don't use the same power level all the time. So the utility could build *bigger* plants to supply increased demand during peak periods and let it idle during not-peak times, or they could offer customers an incentive to use more electricity during non-peak times. Time-of-use metering is just that, an incentive from the utility to try and induce customers to use electricity when some of the utility's equipment would otherwise be idle.
So the simple question is, "Build an extra 1000 MW plant at a cost of $1-$2 B and have it idle 20 hours a day, or provide cheaper power during non-peak times and maximize the use of existing plants at a lower profit margin?" Run the numbers and see how it works out.
daestrom


At any time, there are at least EIGHT or more DIFFERENT types of electricity kicking around on your grid. Each reacts differently to demand changes and each is carefully optimized to within a fraction of a millicent of optimum at all times. There is NEVER anything generated that is not sold or a direct carefully minimized part of being sold.
There is NEVER any "wasted" electricity.
Even if the supply voltage were to go up on a temorarily reducing demand, most of the present users WILL PAY MORE for their electricity.
These types of electricity include baseload, peaking, brokered, rolling, negawatts, scheduled, returned, and stored. Plus several others.
See http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu05.asp for a further discussion.
-- Many thanks,
Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Dishonest Daestrom fellow-jackal: Things to Know About Power

shadetree1999@hotmail.com wrote:

Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3b (You know who you are.)
It's too late. You've already made a complete ass of yourself with the gibberish you've been spouting so far. You do realize,( I hope), that the stuff you pasted in the post I'm replying to is exactly what many people have been trying to explain to you? Did you notice the first line of the second paragraph, where it states that "Electricity cannot be stored. It is generated as it is used"? Will you now concede that point, and admit there is no "lost, or wasted, electrictity that goes "poof" into thin air"?

I concede the Point is true that you cannot store "electricity" as AC. It must be converted to some other form which has prepared storage means.
I do not concede the taken-out-of-context FALSE CLAIM that electricity is not being wasted routinely in generation, transmission and consumption.
Since I know I am dealing with a pack of jackels who take things out of context and deny they even said a thing by next message I post 6 prophylactic messages in the following order.all in close proximity so when you recieved one you received the next before you could post to reply to the first. For technical reasons, and courtest about overlong posts, all six were not combined into one.
1 = Things to know about Power Grids before embarassing yourself #1 http://tinyurl.com/acy5d (google archive message)
2 = Things to Know About Power Generation Before You Embarrass Yourself #2 http://tinyurl.com/dmevp (google archive message)
3 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3a http://tinyurl.com/aknxk (google archive message)
4 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3b (You know who you are.) http://tinyurl.com/76ksc (google archive message)
5 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3c (You know who you are.) http://tinyurl.com/a9ouw (google archive message)
6 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3d (You know who you are.) http://tinyurl.com/ahylo (google archive message)
Your FALSE CLAIM violates fundamental principles of POWER GENERATION and POWER GRIDS.
#1 & #2 have your rebuttals on that. http://tinyurl.com/acy5d http://tinyurl.com/dmevp
Generators are not rubber, stretching and shrinking to match loads. They are already online putting voltage at the open-circuit when you refrigerator or elevator kicks on, closing the circuit and allowing energy to flow. Some of that power was contracted days, weeks, months in advance from long-distance suppliers and has been scheduled over transmission lines through hundreds if utility districts to be present at the switch you throw. #5 above (Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3c http://tinyurl.com/a9ouw ) wasn't touched by one of you jackals. Why is that? Too much REALITY to deal with?

This is a good tutorial. You now have as almost as much information as a power plant operator- trainee has received about line transmission, by morning coffee break on his first day of classes.
K. Jones

Good one, Jackal. Reminds of the schoolyard taunt "I know you are but what am I?"
You permitted your fellow pack Jackal Don Lancaster to make bogus claims that there are no surpluses EVER in the grid system, online, without immediate users. #2 above refutes you individually and collectively (Things to Know About Power Generation Before You Embarrass Yourself #2 http://tinyurl.com/dmevp ). DISHONEST DON LANCASTER has said that over and over and has not been reprimanded by you, proof of your collective-jackal-pack dishonesty.
Since I know I am dealing with a pack of jackels who take things out of context and deny they even said a thing by next message I post 6 prophylactic messages in the following order.all in close proximity so when you recieved one you received the next before you could post to reply to the first. For technical reasons, and courtest about overlong posts, all six were not combined into one.
1 = Things to know about Power Grids before embarassing yourself #1 http://tinyurl.com/acy5d (google archive message)
2 = Things to Know About Power Generation Before You Embarrass Yourself #2 http://tinyurl.com/dmevp (google archive message)
3 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3a http://tinyurl.com/aknxk (google archive message)
4 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3b (You know who you are.) http://tinyurl.com/76ksc (google archive message)
5 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3c (You know who you are.) http://tinyurl.com/a9ouw (google archive message)
6 = Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3d (You know who you are.) http://tinyurl.com/ahylo (google archive message)

Dishonest Daestrom fellow-jackal: Things to Know About P

"H2-PV NOW" wrote in message

shadetree1999@hotmail.com wrote: Things to Know About Power Transmission Before Embarrassing Yourself #3b (You know who you are.)
It's too late. You've already made a complete ass of yourself with the gibberish you've been spouting so far. You do realize,( I hope), that the stuff you pasted in the post I'm replying to is exactly what many people have been trying to explain to you? Did you notice the first line of the second paragraph, where it states that "Electricity cannot be stored. It is generated as it is used"? Will you now concede that point, and admit there is no "lost, or wasted, electrictity that goes "poof" into thin air"?
I concede the Point is true that you cannot store "electricity" as AC. It must be converted to some other form which has prepared storage means.
I do not concede the taken-out-of-context FALSE CLAIM that electricity is not being wasted

Define "wasted".
And, no, not your condition last night.


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