Hurricane... Inverter in car, or generator on balcony

I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony... but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!
As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install). Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
Thanks!
Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida

wrote in message

I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony... but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!

I am sure that you will see hundreds of generators running on balconies afer the next hurricane, but the idea scares the hell out of me and it may well be forbidden by any given condo Assn. Another possibility (if allowed) would be to make a deal with your downstairs neighbor, and share an EU2000 placed down at ground level.

As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install). Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?

I suggest an alternative. Buy yourself a nice deep-cycle battery, a battery box and a float charger. (Be sure it really is a float charger, not just a trickle charger) Keep the battery charged in your apartment and get yourself a couple of 12-volt flourescent lamps and a 12-volt fan to run off of it. (Don't forget a 12-volt cell phone charger and a 12-volt power supply for your laptop. Oh yes, you will also want one of those nifty 12-volt televisions.) Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car, or get a little dolly and lug it down to the car for charging (enjoy the AC in your car while you are charging your battery). The inverter is now optional, but I would discourage it because it is a heluva power hog.
You can get the charger and many of the 12-volt cords/splitters and other gizmos at Harbor Freight in Lake Worth.
Now you have a noise-free hurricane comfort/survival system that (unlike the genny) you can also use right through the storm. I set up this identical system for a friend of mine in Century Village and also for my father.
Vaughn (in Lantana)

Thanks!
Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida

delraydog@gmail.com wrote:

I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony... but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!

Hi neighbor (waves) I'm south of you in Broward. You are correct that a generator on the balcony won't be permitted. The police are wising up that the practice is not only a noisy nuisance, but extremely dangerous. Forget about that idea.
You might petition the condo board to install a large backup generator that all tenants can use. If you have elevators, a backup may soon be required by law anyway. Since this would be a retrofit, if it is a small building, what could be done is a separate circuit near the elevator shaft, with an outlet panel on each floor, containing one individually fused socket for each condo unit, and a link to any emergency lighting. The breaker would be designed to trip at 15 amps. During an outage, each condo owner would have an approved heavy duty extension cord, and plug this in to power their refrigerator, tv, and fan, or small AC. The owners would decide beforehand whether to run the generator all the time or just during certain periods.

As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).

The output of a car alternator is only about 750 watts and a lot of that is used by parasitic loads in the car. You also have to use a high idle to get any sort of power out of an alternator. Chances are real good you would toast your electical system in your car, possibly clog up the engine, and the system isn't efficient anyway.
Keeping it simple, you could chain a generator to your car.
However, what I would do in your situation is get a cheap generator, a large battery charger, four golf-cart batteries, some welding cable, a hydrometer, and an inverter, all for the same price as the Honda.
During the morning and early evening, I'd run the generator for an hour or two beside the car, drop a cable down, and use the charger to charge the batteries, which would have been placed on the balcony and connected after the storm. Once the batteries were charged, I'd let the generator cool and lock it in the trunk of the car, and use battery power and the inverter.
I used a variation of this after Wilma, and kept my refrigerator going 24/7 and had enough power to do what I wanted. Anything that took serious electricity, like the washing machine, was only run on generator power.
Caveats - Some appliances don't like inverter power. Some chargers may not like generator power. You need _at least_ a 1200 watt inverter to start a fridge compressor. Forget about using a room air conditioner except on generator power. If an appliance uses electrical resistance heat - ditch it.* Batteries should only be discharged to 50% of rated capacity. Batteries should be fully charged and equalized at least once a week under these conditions. You can't substitute car batteries for this usage. You should buy all four golf cart batteries as a unit. Batteries used like this must be outside of the dwelling (you can store them inside if you aren't charging or using them - just be careful - store them in rubbermaid plastic storage containers that you've cut holes in the top of for venting any hydrogen.)
* I'm amazed at people stuggling after a storm to try to cook everything on a grill. A single burner propane camp stove is less than $15 and sits on a propane bottle. It is great for making coffee with an old style percolator or a french press, and for heating small amounts of water and normal cooking. Sterno or alcohol saturated cotton batting in a tuna can is great for slow cooking.
For large amounts of hot water, buy a box of 1.5 mil black plastic garbage bags. Push out the excess air and lie a bag on its side in the sun with a couple of inches of water in it. You'll have hot water for dish cleaning. Do a few bags and have enough for a tub bath in the afternoon or evening.

"Vaughn Simon" wrote:
A bunch of stuff that all works except this:

Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car,

The line losses and voltage drop going to a second floor balcony make this a losing proposition. For a single battery, using a small handtruck or fold-up luggage cart from the 1970s works well getting a battery to and from a car.

On 27 May 2006 08:21:14 -0700, delraydog@gmail.com wrote:

I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install). Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?

Bad idea. I'll leave it to you to go out on the net and learn the difference between starting batteries and deep discharge batteries. You have a couple of key words to google for now.
The other problem is energy density. An old rule of thumb is that 1000 lbs of lead-acid batteries contain the same energy as a gallon of gasoline.
Tying these two thoughts together, you'd need a thousand lbs of batteries to supply the same load for the same period of time as a single gallon of gas in a generator would.
I'd recommend a portable generator. The Honda EU is good, though I try to direct people to other brands because Honda does everything it legally can to price-fix, prohibiting advertising price on the net and so on. Yamaha makes a line of inverter generators that is as good if not better than the Hondas for a bit less money. There's a ChiCom clone of the EU (can't recall the name right now) that has gotten good reviews. I can't actually recommend one because I've yet have my hands on one to test but I will mention it here.
Regarding the condo association, screw 'em. In a weather emergency, even the worst of the busy-bodies will have is hands too full to worry about generators. The inverter generators are small, very quiet and the amount of exhaust emitted is almost insignificant. Certainly not enough to bother anyone in adjacent units.
What you can do with your car is a) keep it filled with gas and b) have a fuel tap installed so that you can harvest gas when you need it without having to resort to siphoning. A gas tap is nothing more than a valve tee'd into the gas line, equipped with a nipple that a length of rubber gas line can be slipped onto when needed.
All that is required to harvest gas is to crank the car's engine to fire off the fuel pump, connect some hose and turn the valve. EFI fuel pumps can move a lot of fuel quickly so it won't take long to harvest a gallon or two at a time.
An added advantage is that the fuel is always fresh since you're constantly using it during normal driving.
I've pretty much stopped keeping gas around the place for my gas operated equipment. I simply fill the tank of the weed whacker or pressure washer directly from my car.
I'd probably want to have a 5 gallon gas can around for just in case the storm surge gets to your car but I'd not keep it filled. Just fill it from the car tap when the bad weather is headed in. If you don't need the gas then you can pour it back into the car tank later.
John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

"Harry Chickpea" wrote in message

"Vaughn Simon" wrote:
A bunch of stuff that all works except this:
Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car,
The line losses and voltage drop going to a second floor balcony make this a losing proposition. For a single battery, using a small handtruck or fold-up luggage cart from the 1970s works well getting a battery to and from a car.

No, actually I have done it. With a second floor balcony and assuming the car is parked near, you are talking about 30 feet of #10 or #8 "monster" cable. Given the modest loads that I discussed earlier, that setup should allow a useful charging current. In fact, the greatest contributor to the overall resistance of the circuit is likely to be the contact resistance of 4 alligator clips. I agree, the battery cart is more efficient. One would connect the battery, allow an hour or so for the batteries to equalize, and then start the car for an hour or two to finish the charge (and to get cool in the car's AC with the blower on low to conserve juice.)
Vaughn

Neon John wrote:

Regarding the condo association, screw 'em. In a weather emergency, even the worst of the busy-bodies will have is hands too full to worry about generators.

LOL! While I like the sentiment, I can tell you haven't lived in south Florida, John. When the power goes out, it unhooks the television IV from all the transplanted New Yorkers. You would get less angry activity if you hit the side of a beehive with a baseball bat.
The obvious solution is to stay out of condos and homeowner associations. The other obvious solution is that there is no perfect obvious solution. Generators alone are simple, but having batteries reduces the need for fuel and provides some quiet time (unless some other condo owner has said "screw 'em" to everyone in the condo.)
If I was second floor or higher in a condo, I'd probably just take a vacation for a couple of weeks and let the others bake and bitch until the power returned.

"Vaughn Simon" wrote:

"Harry Chickpea" wrote in message "Vaughn Simon" wrote:
A bunch of stuff that all works except this:
Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car,
The line losses and voltage drop going to a second floor balcony make this a losing proposition. For a single battery, using a small handtruck or fold-up luggage cart from the 1970s works well getting a battery to and from a car.
No, actually I have done it. With a second floor balcony and assuming the car is parked near, you are talking about 30 feet of #10 or #8 "monster" cable. Given the modest loads that I discussed earlier, that setup should allow a useful charging current. In fact, the greatest contributor to the overall resistance of the circuit is likely to be the contact resistance of 4 alligator clips. I agree, the battery cart is more efficient. One would connect the battery, allow an hour or so for the batteries to equalize,

(I wouldn't wait much more than five minutes in this situation, if that. You are "jump starting" the deep discharge battery, and if the voltage was particularly low, you could drop the car battery surface charge below where it would easily start the car.)

and then start the car for an hour or two to finish the charge (and to get cool in the car's AC with the blower on low to conserve juice.)
Vaughn

I agree that a long cable sort-of works, enough for a day or two, but I wouldn't want to use it for much more than that, for fear of undercharging the battery. This isn't an absolute, but part of the trade-offs of battery convenience, lifespan, and use. The issue I see is that long cables don't allow enough voltage for an equalizing charge. The calculations below are just for example.
Assume that an alternator puts out 14 volts, and the float charge of a lead-antimony battery is 2.15 volts per cell, or 12.9 volts. To get a full charge, the voltage must reach that or slightly more, and be held there for at least a brief period. That allows a maximum 1.1 volt drop in connector and cables. On a #10 cable, a single 30 foot run could deliver about 36 amps at 12.9 volts. Add in the connector loss, and the fact that the return isn't a solid huge chassis, and useful amperage is less. A #8 cable is significantly better.
Will the battery charge enough to be useful? Yes. Will a charge like that bring the battery up to float charge easily and quickly? I don't think so, especially after a few discharge cycles and the battery begins to age. If I use a single marine battery while van camping, I wear it out in a little over a week, even with recharging from a 1000 watt alternator for three or four hours a day.
Common thought is that a lead-acid cell discharged below 10.5 volts is permanently damaged. A safer low voltage cutoff is 12 volts, and a compromise for an emergency battery might be 11.5 volts (in that the expected useful life of a battery is only about 3 years in Florida heat anyway). BTW, the rate of discharge is not linear, so a battery might last a good while going from 12.5 volts to 12 volts and only a short length of time going from 12 volts to 11.5 volts.
The voltage drop while charging through a long cable will slow the recharging and may cause the user to accept lower voltages as "normal." That kills batteries - at least that has been my experience.
None of this takes into account the de-rating of a battery at higher temperatures, increased wire resistance at higher temps, etc..
Perhaps the user could use the long cables for a day or two and then bring the battery to the car as a compromise?
By using 12 volt appliances rather than an inverter setup, your concept does put a lot less drain on a battery, so you might not have the concerns that I do in keeping a 120 vt refrigerator running. To me, if I can't keep the refrigerator going, and a source of ice, I don't find making my own power that attractive. My van has a tv, AC, bed, dorm refrigerator and microwave. It would be easier for me to just move into it for a few days.
You can calculate voltage drop here: <http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm>

On Sat, 27 May 2006 18:37:54 GMT, hchickpeaREMOVEME@hotmail.com (Harry Chickpea) wrote:

Neon John wrote:
Regarding the condo association, screw 'em. In a weather emergency, even the worst of the busy-bodies will have is hands too full to worry about generators.
LOL! While I like the sentiment, I can tell you haven't lived in south Florida, John. When the power goes out, it unhooks the television IV from all the transplanted New Yorkers. You would get less angry activity if you hit the side of a beehive with a baseball bat.

You couldn't get me near south Florida with a gun to my head. I've experienced more than enough Nu Yawk yankee *ssholes in their native environment to want to be near 'em in geezerland under adverse conditions. (Hey, I did my part to help raise NYC's power bills, helping build Shoreham :-)
One potential solution could be some innovative chemical weaponry. Say, a big pot of chitlins cooking on the coleman stove..... When the suckers can't breath, they can't bitch. When all else fails, shoot the b*stards. Not much forensics to be had in the middle of a hurricane. No smileys.
That's the down side of all this money being spent on emergency services - it's getting harder and harder for the weather to do Darwin's work these days....

The obvious solution is to stay out of condos and homeowner associations.

AMEN, Bro! Attica is more appealing than dealing with either of those.

The other obvious solution is that there is no perfect obvious solution. Generators alone are simple, but having batteries reduces the need for fuel and provides some quiet time (unless some other condo owner has said "screw 'em" to everyone in the condo.)

Well yeah, batteries are nice - I have a thousand pounds or so installed in my mountain retreat's UPS system. And another thousand pounds in my electric car. But not terribly practical for the described environment unless one wants to dedicate a bedroom to 'em.
I have a LOT of experience dry camping in an RV so I have to chuckle when I read advice to someone to "just get a trolling battery and an inverter or 12 volt appliances and you'll be set for the duration." Simple math and experience both show the fallacy of that one.
If all one needs is a few lights and perhaps a fan then a hybrid system consisting of a deep cycle battery (or two), a small inverter and a small generator would work well. In effect, that's what I have in my RV. The lights are CF and the fans are high efficiency BLDC motored. I charge for an hour every day or two using a generator and high powered charger (PD Intellipower 60 amp with Charge Wizard). You can figure double or triple that power demand for even a small portable TV. (If you must, a small flat panel TV MIGHT be a bit more energy-efficient.) But if one wants to refrigerate - even just a little bit - or cook or do any of the other things that makes life off the grid enjoyable then forget the battery-based solution and get a small generator.
It's hard to define 'quiet time' when discussing the small inverter generators, they're so quiet. This isn't like having a bellowing Coleman next to the patio door.

If I was second floor or higher in a condo, I'd probably just take a vacation for a couple of weeks and let the others bake and bitch until the power returned.

well yeah, that's what I'd do too but the guy didn't ask for that kind of advice. I just assume he knows what he wants to accomplish and then go about telling him how.
John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

wrote in message

I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony... but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!

If you can make an eu2000 so it's not visible without interfering with the intake or exhaust you can pretty much drown out the noise with a small electric fan, be it 12 VDC or AC. They are very quiet except when running at near full load and then they are still not very noticeable. I don't really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not allowed to build up. Perhaps something that looks like a patio table that will disguise the genny and reduce the noise.
Neon John mentioned a Chinese clone generator and there are also inverter generators made by Kipor but first we need a volunteer to buy one and run it through the wringer and post a review. Yamaha inverter generators have excellent reviews too. The main reason I bought a Honda is because there are at least two warranty repair places near me and none for Yamaha. If noise is a major concern then I suggest you stick with the inverter generators.
If it was me I'd use the eu2000 (more effecient than the eu1000 and probably quieter at half load because the eu2000 will be running slower) to run small appliances and charge two-four golf cart batteries. I suggest using a good battery charger rather than the built-in DC output as it is really only suitable for occasional, urgent use. A cheap 700 watt inverter could run a small TV, DVD/VHS player and computer while the generator is off. If you need AC the eu2000 will power one up to perhaps 8000 BTU but as someone else recently pointed out there may be a big difference in the startup power needed by different models so shop around.

As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install). Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
Thanks!

I think inverters in cars are great for occasional use for drills and saws etc. in remote areas but I think it's a horrible idea for what you are doing. For one thing you would be using a lot more gasoline and horsepower to do the job and your car battery is not designed to be discharged repeatedly.

Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida

Per Ulysses:

I don't really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not allowed to build up.

I'm no expert... but I can envision the fumes drifting into a neighbor's open patio door - depending on the wind. -- PeteCresswell

"Ulysses" wrote:

If it was me I'd use the eu2000

cost?

wrote in message

I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony... but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!
As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install). Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
Thanks!
Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida

If you want to keep a freezer or refrigerator going, you'd need a generator. A 750 watt inverter will draw a lot of power from a battery. Even assuming 90% efficiency, it will draw at least 65 amps under full load, which few car alternators are capable of handling. In my experience, taxing a car electrical system with such severe loads will probably cause it to fail prematurely. The other problem is the car battery, which isn't designed to deep-cycle and will probably be ruined after a few deep discharges and fast charges.
In any case, running your car will probably be noisier and costlier than a good inverter generator. If you can't afford the noise, take the advice of the guy who suggested building a battery bank of deep-cycle batteries. For about half the cost of a good generator, you could probably run your stuff for a few days, if you do it sparingly. With a modest 10-amp battery charge, you could have them back up to full charge in about 2-3 weeks.

wrote in message

"Ulysses" wrote:
If it was me I'd use the eu2000
cost?

Honda eu2000 generators are going for about $900 in South California and the eu1000s are about $650.

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message

Per Ulysses: I don't really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not allowed to build up.
I'm no expert... but I can envision the fumes drifting into a neighbor's open patio door - depending on the wind.

I use an eu2000 next to a travel trailer and never have had any problems with exhaust getting inside. It usually sits out in front about 6 feet from the door. It doesn't seem to matter which way the wind is blowing. Certainly, under certain circumstances, it could be a problem but on a second-floor balcony I'd expect the exhaust to disperse quickly.

-- PeteCresswell