Solar hot water?

I thought my builder had the solar hot water thing under control, and he thought I was doing it, so now I've been saddled with another task. Sometime in the next month I've got to get a solar thermal hot water system specified and delivered. Yikes!
Anyone have any suggestions for brands, vendors, or types? This will be used in a non-freezing environment, and I'd like to get as much storage as possible.
Because of homeowner's association rules, the solar panel must be at ground level, and I'm thinking of having an 'automatic' system that will use a couple of 20W solar electric panels I've already got, running a circulation pump whenever the sun shines. Will this work, or must I have a differential thermostat as well?
Can I just use any random electric hot water heater(s) for storage, and run the heated water backwards thru them with a pump, of do I need to remove/extend the drain valve to take cold water from the bottom of the tank?
Anything I'm forgetting?
Many Thanks in advance!

On Fri, 19 May 2006 16:38:38 -0400, William P.N. Smith wrote:

I thought my builder had the solar hot water thing under control, and he thought I was doing it, so now I've been saddled with another task. Sometime in the next month I've got to get a solar thermal hot water system specified and delivered. Yikes!
Anyone have any suggestions for brands, vendors, or types? This will be used in a non-freezing environment, and I'd like to get as much storage as possible.
Because of homeowner's association rules, the solar panel must be at ground level, and I'm thinking of having an 'automatic' system that will use a couple of 20W solar electric panels I've already got, running a circulation pump whenever the sun shines. Will this work, or must I have a differential thermostat as well?

You'll probably need at least an upper-limit cutoff. In summer our setup (AZ, 64sq.ft. collector, 2 people) only circulates for about an hour per day, and that's with a 160F storage limit. FWIW, I had a simple drain-down system for years in CA, and was occasionally frustrated that I needed aa chart and an Ohmmeter to measure the temperature sensors in order to figure out what the controller was trying to do. So when it came time to build a new one I opted for a differential controller with a digital readout of storage and collector. About $200 IIRC.

Can I just use any random electric hot water heater(s) for storage, and run the heated water backwards thru them with a pump, of do I need to remove/extend the drain valve to take cold water from the bottom of the tank?

There are custom solar/electric tanks with optimized ports. Sometimes a separate tank is used for solar storage, in series with the existing tank. You might check out the Solar Sidebar and batch heaters. Both on this page http://www.cisolar.com/catPool.html Good prices on collectors here http://www.sunraysolar.com/index.php The guy is friendly and helpful, he might even have some ideas on tanks etc.

Anything I'm forgetting?

Are you sure about not needing freeze protection? The collectors can freeze fairly easily on a cold windy night.
Wayne
PS Please let us know how the energy detective thing works out.

wmbjk wrote:

news2006c@compusmiths.com> wrote: Anyone have any suggestions for brands, vendors, or types? This will be used in a non-freezing environment, and I'd like to get as much storage as possible.
You'll probably need at least an upper-limit cutoff.

Yeah, I realized that's going to be important (as is I gather a temp/pressure relief valve at the collector), so I've talked to the electrician to get a wire out to the collector.

differential controller with a digital readout of storage and collector. About $200 IIRC.

Good point. I've seen ones with a computer interface and electric heater element control, but I'm not sure if I need to get that carried away. I'll probably try for a couple of remote LEDs for circulation pump and electric heater status, though... Any particular brand you can reccomend, or just whatever comes with a complete system?

There are custom solar/electric tanks with optimized ports.

Everyone seems to use/resell the Rheem tank with or without an auxiliary heater, so I'll probably go with one of those.

http://www.cisolar.com/catPool.html Good prices on collectors here http://www.sunraysolar.com/index.php The guy is friendly and helpful, he might even have some ideas on tanks etc.

I'll check those guys out, thanks!

Are you sure about not needing freeze protection? The collectors can freeze fairly easily on a cold windy night.

This location has had a low temperature in the last 5.5 years of 63.04 degrees F. 8*)

PS Please let us know how the energy detective thing works out.

Will do, but it may by June or July by the time I get it installed. I'll remember to take pictures!

On Sun, 21 May 2006 13:38:26 -0400, William P.N. Smith wrote:

wmbjk wrote: news2006c@compusmiths.com> wrote: Anyone have any suggestions for brands, vendors, or types? This will be used in a non-freezing environment, and I'd like to get as much storage as possible.
You'll probably need at least an upper-limit cutoff.
Yeah, I realized that's going to be important (as is I gather a temp/pressure relief valve at the collector), so I've talked to the electrician to get a wire out to the collector.
differential controller with a digital readout of storage and collector. About $200 IIRC.
Good point. I've seen ones with a computer interface and electric heater element control, but I'm not sure if I need to get that carried away. I'll probably try for a couple of remote LEDs for circulation pump and electric heater status, though... Any particular brand you can reccomend, or just whatever comes with a complete system?

Ours is a Heliotrope General Temp Trak II. Two storage sensor inputs, 1 collector, and 2 aux IIRC. Nicely customizable with dip switches and pots, with digital readout of settings and sensor temperatures. Either storage sensor can be used to govern circulation. Freeze circulation option for direct systems that need only occasional protection. It's been trouble free, my only (minor) complaint is that the select-function button is quirky. Sometimes nothing happens when you press it, other times it jumps two steps with each press. The controller is about 7 years old, I don't have any idea what newer versions are like or what else is even available. And I don't remember it having any aux heater functions.

There are custom solar/electric tanks with optimized ports.
Everyone seems to use/resell the Rheem tank with or without an auxiliary heater, so I'll probably go with one of those.
http://www.cisolar.com/catPool.html Good prices on collectors here http://www.sunraysolar.com/index.php The guy is friendly and helpful, he might even have some ideas on tanks etc.
I'll check those guys out, thanks!
Are you sure about not needing freeze protection? The collectors can freeze fairly easily on a cold windy night.
This location has had a low temperature in the last 5.5 years of 63.04 degrees F. 8*)

I thought you were in MA? Maybe you need to close the doors at night, it sounds like you're heating the outdoors. :-)

PS Please let us know how the energy detective thing works out.
Will do, but it may by June or July by the time I get it installed. I'll remember to take pictures!

Looking forward to it, I might get one too. According to the MX60 we've had a few days with >500 minutes of float time, and many with

200. Gotta' get to the bottom of that problem ASAP. ;-)

Wayne

wmbjk wrote:

Ours is a Heliotrope General Temp Trak II. Two storage sensor inputs, 1 collector, and 2 aux IIRC. Nicely customizable with dip switches and pots, with digital readout of settings and sensor temperatures... The controller is about 7 years old, I don't have any idea what newer versions are like or what else is even available.

It's no longer being made. OTOH, we can put a $6 snap-disk thermostat inside a glazed box, with another high-limit thermostat on the tank.
Nick

On alt.energy.homepower, in , "William P.N Smith" wrote:

Path: newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!elnk-atl-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!195.62.97.14.MISMATCH!newsfeed0.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!news.osn.de!diablo2.news.osn.de!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.astraweb.com!newsrouter-eu.astraweb.com!hwmnpeer01.ams!hwmedia!news.highwinds-media.com!feed.xsnews.nl!feeder.xsnews.nl!sn-ams-06!sn-xt-ams-08!sn-post-ams-02!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail

What an incredibly long path. Looks fishy.

From: William P.N. Smith <news2006c@compusmiths.com Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower Subject: Solar hot water? Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:38:38 -0400 Organization: ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.

http://compusmiths.com
Nothing there but this:
Contact Information
Electronic mail Hardware/Networks: hardwareweb@compusmiths.com Web/Database: software@compusmiths.com Telephone (978) 664-3083 FAX (978) 664-4683 Postal address P.O. Box 438, North Reading, MA 01864
That webpage could be written in 5 minutes, _manually_.
And there is nothing there that couldn't be done from a single computer in some guy's home. Even the P.O. box.
No physical address.
I smell troll.
_Serious_ troll.

Message-ID: <9mas625blh39tahn0l3ssu2ook1p231751@4ax.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Xref: news.earthlink.net alt.energy.homepower:133114 X-Received-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:38:54 PDT (newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net)

<article not downloaded: http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search William P.N. Smith 0 posts in the last year
Guy has never posted before, but just happens to know how to edit headers in a newspost and has an account on supernews, which only people with experience on the Usenet use.
An NSP that does not include a posting IP. Same for Forte Agent. Newbies use OE or googlegroups.
Troll.
Alan
-- http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

I bought my evacuated tube solar water heater from this company. They have outstanding service and follow up. The unit is shipped directly to your doorstep and you will get a video on how to set it up.
http://www.fitchconsultinginfo.com/

On alt.energy.homepower, in , "Buy_Sell" wrote:
<article not downloaded: http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>
Posting through gg and using a throwaway and smartass alias?
Not one chance in hell I'll ever read one of your articles, nor any responses to them. Won't even download those articles from the server.
You are probably the OP, of course. But it doesn't matter. A troll is a troll, and they get to wear gags when they are in my newsreader.
For the newbies: There are no dependable identifiers in the headers of posts from gg. The posting IP can be forged.
That's why most of the people worth talking to on the Usenet don't even read posts from gg.
Trolls have taken over that server, basically.
Alan
-- http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

On Mon, 22 May 2006 06:16:12 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

On alt.energy.homepower, in , "William P.N Smith" wrote: Path: newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!elnk-atl-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!195.62.97.14.MISMATCH!newsfeed0.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!news.osn.de!diablo2.news.osn.de!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.astraweb.com!newsrouter-eu.astraweb.com!hwmnpeer01.ams!hwmedia!news.highwinds-media.com!feed.xsnews.nl!feeder.xsnews.nl!sn-ams-06!sn-xt-ams-08!sn-post-ams-02!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
What an incredibly long path. Looks fishy.

<snipped much retarded nonsense>

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search William P.N. Smith 0 posts in the last year

<more snippage>

Troll.
Alan

You already made the same stupid claim here http://tinyurl.com/zcy7w, and I corrected you here http://tinyurl.com/kurk5. Now tell us, are you a just a slow learner, or the world's slowest learner?
Wayne

wmbjk wrote:

Alan Connor (some Invalid) apparently wrote:

newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!elnk-atl-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!195.62.97.14.MISMATCH!newsfeed0.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!news.osn.de!diablo2.news.osn.de!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.astraweb.com!newsrouter-eu.astraweb.com!hwmnpeer01.ams!hwmedia!news.highwinds-media.com!feed.xsnews.nl!feeder.xsnews.nl!sn-ams-06!sn-xt-ams-08!sn-post-ams-02!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail

What an incredibly long path. Looks fishy.

Hey, I'm _glad_ it's a long distance between my universe and his. 8*) Netherlands and Germany to get between SuperNews and Earthlink, whoda thunk it?

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search William P.N. Smith 0 posts in the last year

Ah, my mistake again, I keep forgetting I don't exist. Wonder if Google can find my !decwrl!sandbox!wpns postings, from the late 80's... The Invalid probably doesn't even know what bang path addressing is, sigh.
Thanks again for affirming my existance, Wayne. 8*)

Alan Connor wrote:

Not one chance in hell I'll ever read one of your articles, nor any responses to them. Won't even download those articles from the server.

Ooh, he's got an offline newsreader, everyone stand back in awe.
[Except for Google, are there any newsreaders that _aren't_ offline readers?]
Careful, he's a Eunuchs Guy! 8*)

On alt.energy.homepower, in , "wmbjk" wrote:
<article not downloaded: http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>
Trolls are not allowed to send articles to my newsreader via the Usenet.
Alan
-- http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

On alt.energy.homepower, in , "William P.N Smith" wrote:
<article not downloaded: http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>
Am I wrong? Prove it.
That's just a vanity domain.
You could just as well call it "carl@joesplumbing.com"
Alan
-- http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

On Mon, 22 May 2006 20:01:08 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

On alt.energy.homepower, in , "wmbjk" wrote:
article not downloaded:

You were undeniably dead-wrong about Smith, twice. Now you're responding to corrections you conveniently claim not to have read. In honor of your spinelessness and transparency, Usenet Head Office hereby declares that you shall henceforth be known to one and all as the Inspector Clouseau of headers.
Wayne

On Mon, 22 May 2006 12:46:58 -0400, William P.N. Smith wrote:

Alan Connor (some Invalid) apparently wrote:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search William P.N. Smith 0 posts in the last year
Ah, my mistake again, I keep forgetting I don't exist. Wonder if Google can find my !decwrl!sandbox!wpns postings, from the late 80's... The Invalid probably doesn't even know what bang path addressing is, sigh.
Thanks again for affirming my existance, Wayne. 8*)

"Existence is futile, you will be pretermitated"
- Inspector Clouseau, invalid header detective
Wayne