SunBall Solar Appliance kWhs at less than grid costs

Hi Guys,
My name is Greg Watson and my company Green and Gold Energy is in final preproduction test stage of a domestic rooftop tracking PV concentrator of very unconventional design.
The SunBall uses a 500 sun Spectrolab 35% cell to produce 330W peak from 1m^2 of solar collection area. In Adelaide annual energy production is 660 AC kWhs.
Heat management is passive using a aluminium hemisphere of 1.8m^2 with a heat load of 0.03W / cm^2. Thermal efficiency loss for the cell is -0.04%/deg C. Efficiency loss at 40 deg C is less than 3%. Typical silicon flat panels derate at -0.55%/deg C, have a heat loading of about 0.09W / cm^2 and loose about 30% efficiency at 40 deg C.
The generation profile overlaps late afternoon network peak demands as well as eliminating reactive energy flows (such as from reverse cycle A/C units) from the connection point. Non tracked flat panels contribute almost nothing to reducing hot late afternoon peak network loading.
We expect the SunBall to be available in Australia from Feb 2006 and in the US from mid 2006. Expected US retail price is USD$1,100 ex tax or about USD$3.33 / W.
Click below for a lot more info, photos and videos. I welcome your valued feedback and comments on the SunBall.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

"Greg" wrote:

We expect the SunBall to be available in Australia from Feb 2006 and in the US from mid 2006. Expected US retail price is USD$1,100 ex tax or about USD$3.33 / W.

Please let us know when this is actually available, we're awfully jaded by "Coming Soon!" products which never actually hit the market...

http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au

Actually, it's http://greenandgoldenergy.com.au/ (you need to get your ISP or DNS server folks to add an entry for the WWW one.
You might point out that it's a tracker, and detail what the maintenance issues will be. Given that most panels have a 20-year warranty, your 5-year warranty isn't very impressive, though it's understandable given the moving parts.
Don't get me wrong, it looks interesting, but I've seen so many "interesting" solar power solutions in the last 3 decades that I can wait for shipping products, with proven reliability.

I noticed from your web site that you don't show the electrical connections between the ball and the house.
What holds the ball to the base? Could wind blow it off base?
What happens when dirt and debris get under the ball?
Why not put in a small fan to cool the solar cells?
ER

"Greg" wrote in message

Hi Guys,
My name is Greg Watson and my company Green and Gold Energy is in final preproduction test stage of a domestic rooftop tracking PV concentrator of very unconventional design.
The SunBall uses a 500 sun Spectrolab 35% cell to produce 330W peak from 1m^2 of solar collection area. In Adelaide annual energy production is 660 AC kWhs.
Heat management is passive using a aluminium hemisphere of 1.8m^2 with a heat load of 0.03W / cm^2. Thermal efficiency loss for the cell is -0.04%/deg C. Efficiency loss at 40 deg C is less than 3%. Typical silicon flat panels derate at -0.55%/deg C, have a heat loading of about 0.09W / cm^2 and loose about 30% efficiency at 40 deg C.
The generation profile overlaps late afternoon network peak demands as well as eliminating reactive energy flows (such as from reverse cycle A/C units) from the connection point. Non tracked flat panels contribute almost nothing to reducing hot late afternoon peak network loading.
We expect the SunBall to be available in Australia from Feb 2006 and in the US from mid 2006. Expected US retail price is USD$1,100 ex tax or about USD$3.33 / W.
Click below for a lot more info, photos and videos. I welcome your valued feedback and comments on the SunBall.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

Hi William,
The address is http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
As far as our release schedule it's all there in plain view on the "Availability" page.
The tracking motors are sealed brushless gear head motors, sealed inside the SunBall hemisphere. Their rated run life is 100+ years when used to drive the SunBall.
Our warranty is 5 years on parts and labour then 20 years prorated on parts. Given that the SunBall is an appliance and is designed to be repaired, the 25 year life is conservative. In a flat panel the loss of one cell, one cell interconnection, one bypass diode, one glass crack, etc requires the entire flat panel to be thrown away. Not so with the SunBall as it can be, like any appliance, be repaired.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

ER wrote:

I noticed from your web site that you don't show the electrical connections between the ball and the house.

The SunBall outputs DC, just like flat panels and must be connected to the mains by an approved installed, with approved wiring and an approved inverter.

What holds the ball to the base? Could wind blow it off base?

There is a very secure sliding coupling which secures the SunBall hemisphere to the SunBall base and two metal straps which wrap around a roofing rafter and secure the SunBall base to the roof.

What happens when dirt and debris get under the ball?

It can't as there is an insect and dust collar. Also the bearing material (HDPE) is very tough and dirt / dust can't be embedded into it's surface. It is also as slick as Teflon but VERY much tougher.

Why not put in a small fan to cool the solar cells?

The aluminium heat spreader and aluminium heat radiator (the hemisphere) do a excellent job and do it without any moving parts. The cells never get over 10 deg C above ambient. Also the cells are not very sensitive to heat and loose efficiency at -0.04%abs/deg C which is about 14 times less loss than silicon.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

I can understand WHY your trying to make your new product seem better than glass-framed panels but you are not being honest in your comparisons.
Panels that have interconnection failure or bypass diode ( very rare ) are simple to repair and I have done it a few times. The Teldar is simply peeled back and you resolder the failed connection. Bypass diodes are located in the Jbox and are very simple to replace, this is no more work than "servicing" a appliance. In all of the cases you suggest for comparison, manufactures warrant the panels from such defects for 25 years, 5X what your unproven ( time wise / field durability ) product is to offer. I have never seen or heard of a cell failures in the field with Si technology.
Also for reference, most conventional solar panel installations are made up from banks of panels, even if in worst case you have such a failure as you suggest, Harvest wise its in the order of 1-2 percent when it occurs, that being a single panel has a failure , which is almost always only partial thanks to bypass diodes
I have no ill will toward your efforts and if it proves successful could offer some interesting space savings and tracking abilities. But the solar field is littered with promises and I would respectfully suggest you stick to the facts and not make stuff up to promote you new device.
www.solar-guppy.com/forums

"Greg" wrote in message

Hi William,
The address is http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
As far as our release schedule it's all there in plain view on the "Availability" page.
The tracking motors are sealed brushless gear head motors, sealed inside the SunBall hemisphere. Their rated run life is 100+ years when used to drive the SunBall.
Our warranty is 5 years on parts and labour then 20 years prorated on parts. Given that the SunBall is an appliance and is designed to be repaired, the 25 year life is conservative. In a flat panel the loss of one cell, one cell interconnection, one bypass diode, one glass crack, etc requires the entire flat panel to be thrown away. Not so with the SunBall as it can be, like any appliance, be repaired.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

Panels that have interconnection failure or bypass diode ( very rare ) are simple to repair and I have done it a few times. The Teldar is simply peeled back and you resolder the failed connection. Bypass diodes are located in the Jbox and are very simple to replace, this is no more work than "servicing" a appliance. In all of the cases you suggest for comparison, manufactures warrant the panels from such defects for 25 years, 5X what your unproven ( time wise / field durability ) product is to offer.

To give him credits, he writes:

Our warranty is 5 years on parts and labour then 20 years prorated on parts.

So the same 25 years if I understand that correctly.
Christian

In message , Greg writes

the cells are not very sensitive to heat and loose efficiency at -0.04%abs/deg C which is about 14 times less loss than silicon.

So what's the cell technology ?
Cheers, J/. -- John Beardmore

Hi John,
The 35% efficient cell are germanium based plus a few other layers which eats (converts to electricity) everything from 300nm to 1,800nm (UV, visible and IR). Checkout the Spectrolab section of the "Partners" section for more information.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

Solar Guppy Nov 5, 12:46 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic From: "Solar Guppy" - Find messages by this author Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:46:53 -0500 Local: Sat, Nov 5 2005 12:46 am Subject: Re: SunBall Solar Appliance kWhs at less than grid costs Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
I can understand WHY your trying to make your new product seem better than glass-framed panels but you are not being honest in your comparisons.
Panels that have interconnection failure or bypass diode ( very rare ) are simple to repair and I have done it a few times. The Teldar is simply peeled back and you resolder the failed connection. Bypass diodes are located in the Jbox and are very simple to replace, this is no more work than "servicing" a appliance. In all of the cases you suggest for comparison, manufactures warrant the panels from such defects for 25 years, 5X what your unproven ( time wise / field durability ) product is to offer. I have never seen or heard of a cell failures in the field with Si technology.
Also for reference, most conventional solar panel installations are made up from banks of panels, even if in worst case you have such a failure as you suggest, Harvest wise its in the order of 1-2 percent when it occurs, that being a single panel has a failure , which is almost always only partial thanks to bypass diodes
Solar Guppy said,
I have no ill will toward your efforts and if it proves successful could offer some interesting space savings and tracking abilities. But the solar field is littered with promises and I would respectfully suggest you stick to the facts and not make stuff up to promote you new device.
Hi Solar Guppy,
So what happens to a flat panel if someone chucks a rock at the panel or a cell dies? If as you suggest this does not happen then why are they blogs there people discuss how to fix defective flat panels which have been chucked out / replaced under expensive home owner insurance policies?
The bottom line is flat panels are not appliance which can be repaired nor can they get close to the kW to kWh conversion rate or the $ / kWh the SunBall can deliver.
The time to install at 1.32 kW / 2,550 kWh annual 4 SunBall system is 2 hours or less. How long does it take your guys to install a flat panel system which can deliver an equivalent annual kWhs. And what will it cost?
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

On 6 Nov 2005 02:36:39 -0800, "Greg" wrote:

So what happens to a flat panel if someone chucks a rock at the panel

The same thing that happens if someone chucks a rock at a window. If it breaks you replace it. If it's expensive you file an insurance claim.

or a cell dies?

Rare, but most people would just replace the module.

If as you suggest this does not happen then why are they blogs there people discuss how to fix defective flat panels which have been chucked out / replaced under expensive home owner insurance policies?

How about posting the links to the blogs you mentioned so that we can see all this module repairing. I find your product interesting and wish you luck, but exaggerating fault with conventional modules won't help you sell it.

The bottom line is flat panels are not appliance which can be repaired

That's a weak argument that might play well with those who don't know better, but it's going to be a credibility-buster with experienced users. You'd be wise to drop it entirely.

nor can they get close to the kW to kWh conversion rate or the $ / kWh the SunBall can deliver.

Perhaps. I'm looking forward to some independent long-term testing results.

The time to install at 1.32 kW / 2,550 kWh annual 4 SunBall system is 2 hours or less. How long does it take your guys to install a flat panel system which can deliver an equivalent annual kWhs. And what will it cost?

One of your compatriots says he can single-handedly install a 5kW conventional system in 2 days. http://tinyurl.com/ckm2h That's 3.2 hrs per kW versus your 1.5. All I can say is that after many times spending more than 2 hours just to route some minor wiring, you Aussies must be a blur going up and down ladders and crawling through attics. I can imagine your checklist for load-up ... ladder, check ... cordless drill, check ... boombox and Yakkity Sax CD, check ... :-)
Wayne

Wayne (troll) knows all about that...
"//colin//.Hfress//wmbjk//Taz//Tazoar//T@z//dob.a.TROLL//P.BENGI//Digi//JohnTutt le//.Haress//GimmieButt///Eunty JEck//Aunty Jack//Bunty Jack//Thunnus Albacarus//Gimmie Bob//Digi//M II//anonymous//helga//wingnut//Nemisis.0.GimmeButt//Paul Vader//windows.embroidery.Gymmy//Shylork//Hatunen//Lectron_Nuis//BugHunter//fant 0m//KazAdz//Gabriel//a miriad of other munged versions//" wrote in message

On 6 Nov 2005 02:36:39 -0800, "Greg" greg.watson@greenandgoldenergy.com.au> wrote:
So what happens to a flat panel if someone chucks a rock at the panel
The same thing that happens if someone chucks a rock at a window. If it breaks you replace it. If it's expensive you file an insurance claim. Wayne

One of your compatriots says he can single-handedly install a 5kW conventional system in 2 days. http://tinyurl.com/ckm2h That's 3.2 hrs per kW versus your 1.5. All I can say is that after many times spending more than 2 hours just to route some minor wiring, you Aussies must be a blur going up and down ladders and crawling through attics. I can imagine your checklist for load-up ... ladder, check ... cordless drill, check ... boombox and Yakkity Sax CD, check ... :-)
Hi Wayne,
Ok lets compare apples to apples. a 5kW flat panel system will output say 6,500 kWhs annually so we have 6,500kWh / 16 hours = 406kWh / manhour. The 4 SunBalls at 1.3kW outputs say 2,550kWhs annually for 2,550kWh / 2 hours = 1,275kWh / manhour. Thats about 3 times the kWh output per installer hour and such a boost in productivity is something the solar retail business owner would love.
The 2 hour figure is based on 4 SunBalls with AC grid connect inverters in their base and a single AC run to the circuit breaker panel. No inverter or racking to install nor is there any need to go into the attic.
All the best, Greg Watson Green and Gold Energy Adelaide, South Australia +61 408 843 089 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au Online SunBall discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball

Greg wrote: ....

Ok lets compare apples to apples. a 5kW flat panel system will output say 6,500 kWhs annually so we have 6,500kWh / 16 hours = 406kWh / manhour. The 4 SunBalls at 1.3kW outputs say 2,550kWhs annually for 2,550kWh / 2 hours = 1,275kWh / manhour. Thats about 3 times the kWh output per installer hour and such a boost in productivity is something the solar retail business owner would love.
The 2 hour figure is based on 4 SunBalls with AC grid connect inverters in their base and a single AC run to the circuit breaker panel. No inverter or racking to install nor is there any need to go into the attic.

Perhaps you are looking at it from the wrong direction. Consider that the panels (or sunballs) are going to be in service for several decades. Does it matter very much if it takes a couple hours more (or less) to install?
It's comparable to building a house. If you expect your house to stand for a century, do you see if you can shave a day or two off it's construction? Would you trade a couple of decades of lifespan for that house for a few hundred dollars savings?
Anthony

In article , "Greg" wrote:

The 2 hour figure is based on 4 SunBalls with AC grid connect inverters in their base and a single AC run to the circuit breaker panel. No inverter or racking to install nor is there any need to go into the attic.

Then how do you "wrap the mounting straps around a roofing rafter"?
I hope the thing on your website is a prototype, since it does not appear to have any sort of "seal" (or "insect and dust collar") keeping stuff out of the bearing area. A production model might want to use a ring of UMHW for the bearing rather than the "daisy" that seems to have, which appears to be prone to getting debris trapped in it.
I'm certainly pleased to see a solar concentrator collector which appears to be actually making it to the consumer market, but I think every regular poster here has seen about 50 dozen claims of the next great cheap advance that never quite makes it (or makes it but costs 2x others, not 1/10th others, as with the Uni-solar film panels), so we are a bit jaded about announcements for any product we can't go out and buy, today. As for the built-in inverter, that's a negative feature from my off-grid perspective. And I have a question which might not be much of a concern in Australia - how does this thing cope with ice storms? A more traditional tracking mechanism which can hide under the panel would appear to be less likely to jam up with ice.
It's a bit disingenuous to go on about the annual tracking production (as a given) when that is only applicable for sites with full sun access - many real sites benefit far less from tracking, as they have mountains, trees, or other impediments to 100% access. Your website eventually mentions this, but your postings appear to take 100% obstacle free solar siting as a given when doing "comparisons". I'm also curious about what assumptions you are making WRT weather for these numbers - while the _relative_ performance should remain similar, the economics of $ in to KWH out vary considerably by location, even with perfect (terrain) solar access, due to weather limiting the available sun.
Avoid hyperbole - if you have a good product, you won't need it. If you get to market at the claimed price and output, I'd be quite interested. If I can get it for an even lower price without the inverter I don't want, so much the better.
-- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by