Small Solar Chargers

On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:54:12 -0400, "R.H. Allen" wrote:

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2007 16:05:29 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com wrote:
Lol...I love watching you spew. Surely you have references to back up your claim that dirt is such a problem, then. If not, you're certainly one to talk about spewing.
Talk to Jack Arbuckle with Arco Solar. Shrug Arco Solar hasn't existed since 1990, when it was sold to Siemens. It has since been sold again, twice, first to Royal Dutch Shell and then to its current owner, Solarworld. Wouldn't surprise me if Jack Arbuckle is no longer there. I am acquainted with several people there and have never heard of him, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything (especially since most of the folks I know there work on cell and module design, rather than PV systems).
http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=1345&archive=1
You may note this portion....
What does any of that have to do with dirt on PV modules?

Blink blink...who said it did?
Gunner
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Gunner wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:54:12 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2007 16:05:29 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com wrote:
Lol...I love watching you spew. Surely you have references to back up your claim that dirt is such a problem, then. If not, you're certainly one to talk about spewing. Talk to Jack Arbuckle with Arco Solar. Shrug Arco Solar hasn't existed since 1990, when it was sold to Siemens. It has since been sold again, twice, first to Royal Dutch Shell and then to its current owner, Solarworld. Wouldn't surprise me if Jack Arbuckle is no longer there. I am acquainted with several people there and have never heard of him, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything (especially since most of the folks I know there work on cell and module design, rather than PV systems).
http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=1345&archive=1
You may note this portion.... What does any of that have to do with dirt on PV modules?
Blink blink...who said it did?

I have no idea what point you were trying to make, then....

On Mon, 21 May 2007 13:04:28 -0400, "R.H. Allen" wrote:

Gunner wrote: On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:54:12 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2007 16:05:29 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com wrote:
Lol...I love watching you spew. Surely you have references to back up your claim that dirt is such a problem, then. If not, you're certainly one to talk about spewing. Talk to Jack Arbuckle with Arco Solar. Shrug Arco Solar hasn't existed since 1990, when it was sold to Siemens. It has since been sold again, twice, first to Royal Dutch Shell and then to its current owner, Solarworld. Wouldn't surprise me if Jack Arbuckle is no longer there. I am acquainted with several people there and have never heard of him, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything (especially since most of the folks I know there work on cell and module design, rather than PV systems).
http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=1345&archive=1
You may note this portion.... What does any of that have to do with dirt on PV modules?
Blink blink...who said it did?
I have no idea what point you were trying to make, then....

ZOOOOOOOMMMMMM!
Shrug
Gunner
This Message is guaranteed environmentally friendly Manufactured with 10% post consumer ASCII Meets all EPA regulations for clean air Using only naturally occuring fibers Use the Message with confidance. (Some settling may occure in transit.) (Best if Used before May 13, 2009)

I do not think there is any way to produce some new power or energy without consuming any material, the power or energy cannot come from nowhere.
And the key point is that the PV system can generate much more power than the power that is consumed to generate the PV system.
At present the general quote for solar panel is USD 3.70-3.80 per watt in China, and for the long term contracts the best quote is about USD 3.50 or EURO 2.65 per watt. The solar panel price will get 30% off within 3 years, and the solar electricity will become much cheaper and cheaper, and the PV system will be widely installed for all kinds of applications.
See more information about China's Solar Energy Industry on my blog, http://solar-in-china.blogspot.com
Dong Wang

Seems to me no one is counting the true oil, coal, gas used to produce these panels.
It took Miners, delivery trucks, Plastics, power plants, installers, and replacement parts as well as new complete systems to install such devices that are only good for 20 years or so.
There is no such thing as oil independence. Only a reduction in your carbon foot print.
TSS

In misc.survivalism solar-in-china@hotmail.com wrote:

At present the general quote for solar panel is USD 3.70-3.80 per watt in China,

I assume that this is a capacity figure. But solar has a limited plant factor, compared with other means of generation.
Do you have good information on cost per kWh, given a typical plant factor and life of the system?
At $0.10/kWh, it would take ony 350 hours of full production (did I get my decimal points in the right places?) for the panel to pay for itself. If the panels get only 1 hour of full sun per day, they would pay for themselves in less than a year?
This is MUCH faster payack than I would have assumed.
-- The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. -- Bertrand Russel

This area is known as Hells Gate. I've been thru there on a 24' Sail boat, not sailing at the time. There is quick moving water (6-8 knots) and if sailors dont time the tides right they wont make it thru. Putting turbines there is probably the only smart decision the city has ever made.
And dont cross-post asswipe.
Cheers
"Useful Info" wrote in message

More info at http://muvy.org

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

In misc.survivalism solar-in-china@hotmail.com wrote:
At present the general quote for solar panel is USD 3.70-3.80 per watt in China,
I assume that this is a capacity figure. But solar has a limited plant factor, compared with other means of generation.
Do you have good information on cost per kWh, given a typical plant factor and life of the system?
At $0.10/kWh, it would take ony 350 hours of full production (did I get my decimal points in the right places?) for the panel to pay for itself. If the panels get only 1 hour of full sun per day, they would pay for themselves in less than a year?
This is MUCH faster payack than I would have assumed.

If the panels were the only thing you had to spend money on, then at $3.70-3.80/W in a sunny locale like Phoenix the cost per kWh would work out to something in the neighborhood of $0.10. That assumes the panels last 30 years, which is reasonable. In that case, since the cost of the PV energy is the same as that from the grid, the payback time is 30 years. Naturally, to get a 1-year payback time when grid power is $0.10/kWh the cost of the energy from the PV system would have to be $0.10/30, or about $0.003/kWh.
However, in reality you still need to buy an inverter, mount the panels, run the wires, etc., and the total cost of the system typically comes out to $8-9/W. At that price, you're talking $0.30-0.35/kWh for a 30-year system. It's been awhile since I've done the math, but at that price you would need the system to run for something like 100 years to break even economically.
Prices still need to be 2-4 times lower before PV will be economically competitive with the grid (in the US, anyway).

On May 26, 11:02 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

At $0.10/kWh, it would take ony 350 hours of full production (did I get my decimal points in the right places?) for the panel to pay for itself. If the panels get only 1 hour of full sun per day, they would pay for themselves in less than a year?
This is MUCH faster payack than I would have assumed.

I think 35,000 hours is the number you're trying to derive. Consider the theoretical 1-watt panel. 1000 hours of operation produces 1 kWh, or $0.10. 35 times that produces $3.50, enough to pay for that theoretical 1-watt panel.

On May 16, 1:03 pm, Gunner wrote:

On Wed, 16 May 2007 12:29:29 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kka...@hotmail.com wrote:

The previous steps all cost x Ergs or what have you. This is done in large volume, so there is economy of scale, not economy of energy used. Energy spent producing the raw materials enjoy a greatly lower Dollar cost, because of economy of scale. It still cost significant amounts of energy to make those raw materials. Dont make the mistake in equating dollars and amounts of energy. There is no direct comparison.
I agree with your last two sentences, but you've got the rest of it backwards. It is quite well established that PV recovers the energy used in its manufacture within a few years, which is comparable to the time it takes a nuclear or coal plant to recover the energy used in its construction.
Got some cites I can review?
Economically, it is also quite well established that PV
tends to be a factor of two to four times the cost of power from the grid. That's down quite a lot from where it was a decade ago, but unless you can collect on government incentives or live in an area with very high electricity prices, it doesn't make economic sense at the moment.
Gunner
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Gunner, Granted, Solar panel systems are generally expensive. The prices are affordable for some, and they are being researched and developed to provide more power for the cost. Why do you shoot people down who try to support it? www.SolarPanel-Rental.com MG

On 28 May 2007 08:47:18 -0700, "EagleEye4u2@gmail.com" wrote:

On May 16, 1:03 pm, Gunner wrote: On Wed, 16 May 2007 12:29:29 -0400, "R.H. Allen" <kka...@hotmail.com wrote:

The previous steps all cost x Ergs or what have you. This is done in large volume, so there is economy of scale, not economy of energy used. Energy spent producing the raw materials enjoy a greatly lower Dollar cost, because of economy of scale. It still cost significant amounts of energy to make those raw materials. Dont make the mistake in equating dollars and amounts of energy. There is no direct comparison.
I agree with your last two sentences, but you've got the rest of it backwards. It is quite well established that PV recovers the energy used in its manufacture within a few years, which is comparable to the time it takes a nuclear or coal plant to recover the energy used in its construction.
Got some cites I can review?
Economically, it is also quite well established that PV
tends to be a factor of two to four times the cost of power from the grid. That's down quite a lot from where it was a decade ago, but unless you can collect on government incentives or live in an area with very high electricity prices, it doesn't make economic sense at the moment.
Gunner
This Message is guaranteed environmentally friendly Manufactured with 10% post consumer ASCII Meets all EPA regulations for clean air Using only naturally occuring fibers Use the Message with confidance. (Some settling may occure in transit.) (Best if Used before May 13, 2009)
Gunner, Granted, Solar panel systems are generally expensive. The prices are affordable for some, and they are being researched and developed to provide more power for the cost. Why do you shoot people down who try to support it? www.SolarPanel-Rental.com MG

I dont shoot people who try to support it. I do shoot shills, pie in the skies and those who lie about the subject..IE its a mature technology and everyone should toss away all their current infrastructure and convert.
And then there are those big time Greens who fly private jets and demand the rest of us pack ourselves in the equivalent of an electric Yugo.
Those I advocate hanging. Slowly.
Gunner
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After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned Gunner wrote on Mon, 28 May 2007 21:16:02 GMT in misc.survivalism :

Gunner, Granted, Solar panel systems are generally expensive. The prices are affordable for some, and they are being researched and developed to provide more power for the cost. Why do you shoot people down who try to support it? www.SolarPanel-Rental.com MG
I dont shoot people who try to support it. I do shoot shills, pie in the skies and those who lie about the subject..IE its a mature technology and everyone should toss away all their current infrastructure and convert.
And then there are those big time Greens who fly private jets and demand the rest of us pack ourselves in the equivalent of an electric Yugo.
Those I advocate hanging. Slowly.

Using a solar powered winch to raise them into position?
At least you're not advocating the PV powered Electric Chair. A little cloud cover, a little reprieve ... this could take a while.
tschus pyotr -- pyotr filipivich The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:35:00 GMT, pyotr filipivich wrote:

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned Gunner wrote on Mon, 28 May 2007 21:16:02 GMT in misc.survivalism :
Gunner, Granted, Solar panel systems are generally expensive. The prices are affordable for some, and they are being researched and developed to provide more power for the cost. Why do you shoot people down who try to support it? www.SolarPanel-Rental.com MG
I dont shoot people who try to support it. I do shoot shills, pie in the skies and those who lie about the subject..IE its a mature technology and everyone should toss away all their current infrastructure and convert.
And then there are those big time Greens who fly private jets and demand the rest of us pack ourselves in the equivalent of an electric Yugo.
Those I advocate hanging. Slowly.
Using a solar powered winch to raise them into position?

But of course!

At least you're not advocating the PV powered Electric Chair. A little cloud cover, a little reprieve ... this could take a while.

Oh fuckme but thats evil! Crom's toe...I LIKE IT!!!!!
Gunner, scribling notes and working on a schematic diagram.....
Hey..anyone know what volt/amps difference there is between Rare and Extra Crispy?

tschus pyotr

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On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 05:55:28 -0700, JulianBarthes@gmail.com wrote:

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http://menunderwears.blogspot.com/

Solar stuff, I presume?
Donn

JulianBarthes@gmail.com contributed wisdom to news:1181652928.089244.263870@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

Huge collection of mens underwear, find your favorite mens underwear

This is my favorite mens underwear. This is my work clothes. http://www.cafepress.com/oddthotz.66709754?pid=2837642

wrote in message

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 05:55:28 -0700, JulianBarthes@gmail.com wrote:
Huge collection of mens underwear, find your favorite mens underwear in this mens underwear gallery, many models of mens underwear are shown here. You can find g-string, thong, or a merely standard mens underwear. Also available here, the vintage mens underwear style to the latest one.
http://menunderwears.blogspot.com/
Solar stuff, I presume?
Donn

No, I think it has something to do with Ford trucks.