Small Solar Chargers

Mommy never did clean _its_ hoo woo (or whatever you furriners call the rectum/arsehole) and SWALK..!
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Mommy never did clean _its_ hoo woo (or whatever you furriners call the rectum/arsehole) and SWALK..!
Leave the ABCP Group off any X-Posting. As you will not get a second notice - nor does the ABCP Group want to see your cat scratchings again - do please accept what you read as a first and final "heads up".
No difference to how you read this response to your SPAM. No matter what language you are familiar with. You ARE being asked _nicely_ to limit your mud-slinging to those newsGroups that entertain you, in any way. ABCP is not on that list, believe that.
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Mommy never did clean _its_ hoo woo (or whatever you furriners call the rectum/arsehole) and SWALK..!
Leave the ABCP Group off any X-Posting. As you will not get a second notice - nor does the ABCP Group want to see your cat scratchings again - do please accept what you read as a first and final "heads up".
No difference to how you read this response to your SPAM. No matter what language you are familiar with. You ARE being asked _nicely_ to limit your mud-slinging to those newsGroups that entertain you, in any way. ABCP is not on that list, believe that.
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Mommy never did clean _its_ hoo woo (or whatever you furriners call the rectum/arsehole) and SWALK..!
Leave the ABCP Group off any X-Posting. As you will not get a second notice - nor does the ABCP Group want to see your cat scratchings again - do please accept what you read as a first and final "heads up".
No difference to how you read this response to your SPAM. No matter what language you are familiar with. You ARE being asked _nicely_ to limit your mud-slinging to those newsGroups that entertain you, in any way. ABCP is not on that list, believe that.
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"rH" <phl�t�rse@stuffed.icons.ret> wrote in message

Mommy never did clean _its_ hoo woo (or whatever you furriners call the rectum/arsehole) and SWALK..!
Leave the ABCP Group off any X-Posting. As you will not get a second notice - nor does the ABCP Group want to see your cat scratchings again - do please accept what you read as a first and final "heads up".
No difference to how you read this response to your SPAM. No matter what language you are familiar with. You ARE being asked _nicely_ to limit your mud-slinging to those newsGroups that entertain you, in any way. ABCP is not on that list, believe that.
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"sarah" wrote in message

I thaught something was wrong with my filters when I was flooded with spam. I switched the filter off and there was no difference. Tried differnt account (nancy) still nothing.
Its when I went to the other groups and saw the rH posts thats when I realized the Group T-rH-oll had pissed off the Spammers.
But you could be right rH has the "resources" to to change aliases and trash the groups at will.
q I love the way this troll speaks for all in the groups. Our saviour and protector we shall not want.
This is one sick individual. These posts are so "righ on cue" for this personality I almost believe they are really from the Taz idiot. Who else has that kind of time to switch nicknames and posting browsers to do all that except a loose cannon in a room full of computers and other resources at an educational institute with no real expectations of him from others?
"sarah" wrote in message rH pissed off the spammers alright. Look at this post below in
(alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.d,alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.0-day,alt.binaries.warez.win95-apps,alt.free.newsservers) LOOKS FAMILIAR DOESNT IT
=================================================================== Subject: [attn] Spammers__was--->Re: ____________Where's the FAQ for this group? < Search for "FAQ" you asshole! q 2006110623092255596614343028625@news.UFF.edu> saw spotbamboo@pop3.yeah.nit (spot bamboo), Bless us ALL with: x53kheyuf3uq$.1xldci3w2oseg.dlg@40tude.net> saw Curious George carling@gmail.com>, Bless us ALL with: snip the 80 lines of SPAM No difference to how you read this response to your SPAM. No matter what language you are familiar with. You ARE being asked nicely to limit your mud-slinging to those newsGroups that entertain you, in any way. ABCP is not on that list, believe that. As you will not get a second notice - nor does the ABCP Group want to see your cat scratchings again - do please accept what you read as a first and final "heads up". Leave the ABCP Group off any X-Posting. Thankyou. rH q ========================================================= -- Do you want a happy group? {a.b.c.p} Killfilter [rH] & [Digi] Today!
-- Do you want a happy group? {a.b.c.p} Killfilter [rH] & [Digi] Today!

<Snip>

I wonder how hard it would be to use the panel D.C. wiring to carry dallas 1-wire comms...

1-Wire is a DC protocal, Maybe superimpose it as AC in the bus? But you need additional parts to extract it and do a dc restore. Maybe a nice ZigBee module would work better.
Cheers

Martine Riddle wrote:

I wonder how hard it would be to use the panel D.C. wiring to carry dallas 1-wire comms...
1-Wire is a DC protocal, Maybe superimpose it as AC in the bus? But you need additional parts to extract it and do a dc restore. Maybe a nice ZigBee module would work better.

1-wire only requires 2 wires (or 3 at the most) and it's a low voltage, very low wattage, system so the wires do not have to carry much power. I would imagine it would be cheaper to run a pair of small wires for the communications.
Anthony

R.H. Allen wrote:

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
On Saturday I saw 30 BP 175i frameless panels with little airflow beneath on a 2-story south shingle roof with a gentle slope, about 30 degrees. If they produce 5.25 kW at 20 C (68 F) and 0.5%/C less when warmer, we might trickle rainwater over them on hot days to produce more power, and maybe melt snow off the array with wintertime trickling...
The average daytime temp in July is about 82 F. If 0.85x254 = 216 Btu/h of net full sun falls on 1 ft^2 of dry panel on a day with no wind (V=0) and A=.002056*Td+.7378 = 0.871 with a Qr=1.63E-09*((T+460)^4-A*(82+460)^4) Btu/h-ft^2 radiation loss and convection loss Qc=(.74+.3*V)*(T-82), using equations from Phil Niles, Qr + Qc = 216 Btu/h makes a panel temp T = 176 F (80 C), so the array would only produce 5.25(1-0.005(80-20)) = 3.7 kW (or less, accounting for dust, etc), for a pump gain of 5.25-3.7-0.17 = 1.4 kW, ie $271/1400 = $0.19 per peak watt :-)
I have no doubt that your analysis is spot-on for the case when the panel is sitting in full sun and would be operating at 80C, but most of the time the panel won't be operating that hot. I recently ran a model based on NREL's TMY2 where I compared annual energy output using the operating temperature computed by the model to that with the operating temperature equal to ambient...

Here's a Phila TMY2 simulation, with lots of dew-point water trickling over the panels whenever that would increase the net output:
10 SCREEN 9:KEY OFF:CLS:PI=4*ATN(1) 20 BETAD=30.1'PV panel tilt (degrees) 30 BETA=BETAD*PI/180'tilt (radians) 40 RHOG=.2'ground reflectance 50 FCS=(1+COS(BETA))/2'sky view factor 60 FCG=(1-COS(BETA))/2'ground view factor 70 GAMMA=0'azimuth angle of panels (south) 80 PVP=5250'PV panel rating (peak watts) 90 PUP=171'pump power (watts) 100 LINE (0,0)-(639,349),,B:XDF=.073:YDF=3.88 110 FOR TR= 60 TO 80 STEP 10'temp ref lines 120 LINE (0,349-YDF*(TR-10))-(639,349-YDF*(TR-10)):NEXT 130 OPEN "13739.tm2" FOR INPUT AS #1'NREL TMY2 file name (Phila) 140 LINE INPUT#1,S$'read header 150 PHID=VAL(MID$(S$,40,2))+VAL(MID$(S$,43,2))/60'latitude (degrees) 160 PHI=PI*LAT/180'latitude (radians) 170 FOR H=1 TO 8760'hour of year 180 LINE INPUT#1,S$ 190 MONTH=VAL(MID$(S$,4,2))'month of year (1-12) 200 DAY=VAL(MID$(S$,6,2))'day of month 210 T=VAL(MID$(S$,8,2))-.5'solar time 220 N=H/24'day of year (1 to 365) 230 TDB=VAL(MID$(S$,68,4))*.18+32'dry bulb temp (F) 240 TDP=VAL(MID$(S$,74,4))*.18+32'dew point temp (F) 250 PSET(XDF*H,349-YDF*(TDB-10)) 260 'PSET(XDF*H,349-YDF*(TDP-10)) 270 IF DAY=1 AND T=.5 THEN LINE (XDF*H,349)-(XDF*H,345)'tick months 280 'V=VAL(MID$(S$,96,3))*.22371'wind velocity (mph) 290 IGLOH=VAL(MID$(S$,18,4))*.317'global horizontal radiation (Btu/ft^2) 300 IDIF=VAL(MID$(S$,30,4))*.317'diffuse horizontal radiation (Btu/ft^2) 310 IDIR=VAL(MID$(S$,24,4))*.317'direct normal radiation (Btu/ft^2) 320 D=PI*23.45/180*SIN(2*PI*(284+N)/365)'declination D&B ='n 1.6.1a 330 W=2*PI*(T-12)/24'hour angle (radians) 340 X=COS(PHI)*COS(D)*COS(W)+SIN(PHI)*SIN(D)'D&B ='n 1.6.5 350 THETAZ=-ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1))+PI/2'cos^-1(x) = sun zenith angle (radians) 360 X=.9999*(COS(THETAZ)*SIN(PHI)-SIN(D))/(SIN(THETAZ)*COS(PHI))'D&B 1.6.6 370 ARG=ABS(ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1)))'sin^-1(x)) 380 GAMMAS=SGN(W)*ARG'sun azimuth angle (radians) 390 X=COS(THETAZ)*COS(BETA)+SIN(THETAZ)*SIN(BETA)*COS(GAMMAS-GAMMA)'D&B 1.6.3 400 THETA=-ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1))+PI/2'incidence angle to surface (radians) 410 IF ABS(THETA)>PI/2 THEN THETA=PI/2'direct sun behind panels 420 IGLOP=IDIR*COS(THETA)+IDIF*FCS+IGLOH*FCG'radiation on surface (Btu/ft^2) 430 T=TDB'initial panel temp estimate (F) 440 TC=(T-32)/1.8'panel temp (C) 450 PVO=.15*IGLOP^2/254*(1-(TC-20)*.005)'PV output (Btu/h-ft^2) 460 GAIN=IGLOP-PVO'solar heat gain (Btu/ft^2) 470 A=.002056*T+.7378'Niles equation coefficient 480 QR=1.63E-09*((T+460)^4-A*(TDB+460)^4)'radiation loss (Btu/h-ft^2) 490 QC=(.74+.3*V)*(T-TDB)'convection loss (Btu/h-ft^2) 500 Q=QR+QC'total loss (Btu/h-ft^2) 510 IF ABS(GAIN-Q)>.1 THEN T=T+.1*(GAIN-Q):GOTO 440 520 PDRY=PVP*IGLOP/254*(1-(TC-20)*.005) 530 EDRY=EDRY+PDRY 540 TWC=(TDP-32)/1.8'wet panel temp (C) 550 PWET=PVP*IGLOP/254*(1-(TWC-20)*.005)-PUP 560 IF PWET>PDRY THEN EWET=EWET+PWET:PH=PH+1 ELSE EWET=EWET+PDRY 570 NEXT H 580 PRINT EWET/1000,EDRY/1000,EWET/EDRY,PH
Yearly energy output (kWh)
water no water ratio pump hours per year
12797.89 11442.21 1.118481 2442 with airport wind 12741.06 9348.097 1.362957 2915 with no wind
It looks like trickling would produce 11.8% more yearly energy at an open site like the TMY2 weather station at the Philadelphia airport and 36.2% more energy at a wind-shaded site with hills and trees and houses (and V=0 mph in line 280.) We might see a bigger difference with panels mounted on a white roof under a white overhang with a white wall behind them.
Nick

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

On Saturday I saw 30 BP 175i frameless panels with little airflow beneath on a 2-story south shingle roof with a gentle slope, about 30 degrees. If they produce 5.25 kW at 20 C (68 F) and 0.5%/C less when warmer, we might trickle rainwater over them on hot days to produce more power, and maybe melt snow off the array with wintertime trickling.

Good idea, but much of the acquired heat energy would be lost to evaporation, not to mention the loss of water. Such an open system would be prone to collecting dirt and debris and if tapwater needs to be added, it would contribute to scaling of minerals on it's surfaces.
A better idea is to capture the heat energy between two panes of glass, filled with water and sealed like an aquarium. I suppose a double-pane glass window could be modified to circulate the water between the panes.
Such a system would collect much more heat than an open system, and it would only be limited by the capacity of your heated water storage.

daestrom wrote:

Isn't there an issue with scale build up over time on the panels with all that evaporation? Granted rain water can be relatively low in mineral content, but is it low enough to avoid any scale at all?
daestrom

You're joking, right? Rainwater is distilled water, how could it have any minerals in it?

OlegP wrote:

daestrom wrote:
Isn't there an issue with scale build up over time on the panels with all that evaporation? Granted rain water can be relatively low in mineral content, but is it low enough to avoid any scale at all?
daestrom
You're joking, right? Rainwater is distilled water, how could it have any minerals in it?
Every drop of rain is formed around a grain of dust.

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OlegP wrote:

daestrom wrote:
Isn't there an issue with scale build up over time on the panels with all that evaporation? Granted rain water can be relatively low in mineral content, but is it low enough to avoid any scale at all?
daestrom
You're joking, right? Rainwater is distilled water, how could it have any minerals in it?

Good gosh, haven't you ever washed a car and seen what it looks like after it has rained? Rainwater often incorporates dust or soot.

OlegP wrote:

Good idea, but much of the acquired heat energy would be lost to evaporation...

PV people tend to think of solar heat as their enemy :-)

A better idea is to capture the heat energy between two panes of glass, filled with water and sealed like an aquarium...

UV polyethylene film duct (used for moving air in greenhouses) is easier to fit and a lot cheaper (about 5 cents/ft^2) on horizontal panels... 30" diameter duct costs about 50 cents per linear foot and lays flat to 48".

Such a system would collect much more heat than an open system, and it would only be limited by the capacity of your heated water storage.

Put a heat storage tank underneath and reflectors above to make 2-3 suns...
Nick

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 06:48:03 GMT, Anthony Matonak wrote:

Martine Riddle wrote:
I wonder how hard it would be to use the panel D.C. wiring to carry dallas 1-wire comms...
1-Wire is a DC protocal, Maybe superimpose it as AC in the bus? But you need additional parts to extract it and do a dc restore. Maybe a nice ZigBee module would work better.

Better? Easier, yes. But zigbee gear is really nasty price. Would be a lot easier though.

1-wire only requires 2 wires (or 3 at the most) and it's a low voltage, very low wattage, system so the wires do not have to carry much power. I would imagine it would be cheaper to run a pair of small wires for the communications.

Yeah, much cheaper than zigbee! But in my case the panels are ca. 80ft of buried conduit away. Last time I tried to pull another cable thru the conduit it was not fun or successfull, even with lots of 'snot'...
sdb
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